Maximizing HD to SD Quality

[Perrone Ford]

I don't do animation, but I don't find the file sizes of lossless files to be all that bad. Cineform works and works well. I just can fit it in my workflow. So if it works for you, then have at it.

[Randall Leong]

Originally Posted by Jim Snow

Completely lossless video results in enormous file sizes that are unwieldy.

That depends on the lossless codec. HuffYUV and Lagarith both produce relatively small file sizes compared to even some of the "mostly lossless" codecs such as Sony YUV. I use HuffYUV when I want results fast or Lagarith when I want the smallest file sizes possible in a completely lossless codec. Most of my HuffYUV and Lagarith files are roughly half the size of the same footage that had been converted to Sony YUV.

If on the other hand you take "completely lossless" as to mean "uncompressed", then yes, the file sizes will be large and unwieldy.

[Roy Niswanger]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

Does not have to be lossy, but if you want Cineform on the timeline, then yes it's slightly lossy. There are ways around this, but it's beyond the scope of this thread, and has been discussed at length on this forum. Basically it's the offline/online editing workflow and is lossless while still giving speed on the timeline.

First, I've read this thread and searched a bit unregistered and have just registered to dive in a bit deeper.

Perrone,

Could you point me in the direction via threads that discusses "ways around this..." regarding replacing Cineform Neo Scene? I have a 5D MkII and I use Sony Vegas 9 and so far I've done some short clips and rendered to MP4 for youtube and SD DVD and it seems okay, but I'm not confident that longer clips will be okay nor am I confident that all the other aspects are normalized for best quality output. I'm running an i7 920 core a bit overclocked because I use 12gb DDR3 RAM with Windows 7 64bit and editing a 1 minute .mov clip in 64bit Vegas 9 seems okay but it's probably due to the processing. I would like find a way to circumvent Neo Scene if at all possible. I've used Virtual Dub for a very long time so I know it well enough.

Update: Perrone, I found this thread where you stated some suggestions with 7D/5D footage (5D II in my case) as far as NLE editing: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/canon-eo...ml#post1449181 So if these 1min clips play well in my NLE timeline (Vegas 9) and I'm okay with the raw .mov file, then my next steps would be 2 fold:

1. Render as MP4 for web i.e. youtube (I need to determine the best settings here for downscaling to the most appropriate size etc.). I'm fairly new to HD.
2. Render as a file such as MP2? to create the best quality SD DVD. I would be using TMPGEnc Express or Authoring Works.

Thanks,
Roy

[Perrone Ford]

I'm not sure if you're asking me a question here. Any file in the .mov container is going to take a speed hit in Vegas. If you can live with that, then the Avid DnxHD codec is going to get it done for you most likely. If you can't live with that performance hit, then you're going to need something like Cineform.

Another VERY speedy option is to transcode your footage to the MXF container. Vegas Pro 9 now includes a very good 50Mbps 422 codec. It should be sufficient for preserving most of the quality of the 5D footage. I may do a test of it tonight or tomorrow and see what I get. With an i7, that codec should move nearly like SD. Only drawback is that I don't know any way to batch encode to it outside of Vegas. So you'd have to do the conversion inside Vegas.

[Roy Niswanger]

Yea I was kind-of asking a question, but certainly not very direct. My struggle is piecing all the great info on this forum to make it work for my particular situation. For starters, I need to understand more of the basics instead of diving right in, but I rarely do that. Like I said I’ve used Vegas for awhile and essentially it has been my one-stop-shop to capture DV video from our old Canon Elura 80 Mini-DV (firewire), edit, and then render as MP4 and SD DVD. I feel good about my past MP4 renders as far as decent web Youtube video, but after reading some stuff about SD DVD here, I feel I had flaws and/or errors in my previous SD DVD workflow (specifically in the setting source footage correctly and using the correct codec and its associated settings). In other words the several family DVDs sitting on our shelves may very well play just fine, but most likely not at their optimum settings. Now that I have a 5D MkII and I sold our Elura 80 I want to get a firm grip on the tools and methods to render compliant MP4 for web and SD DVD as far as best practices go.

I still need to install my screen capture utility so I can post some screen shots in my replies and I plan to do this so I can ask specific questions about codec settings etc. For now I’ll ask a few broader questions.

1. Rather than searching, since I know a search here or via Google will answer it, I’ll humor everyone here. What does NLE stand for?
2. My understanding of the driving source to normalize the 5D MKII .mov footage using Neo Scene is to make it more standard for a Windows editor so it plays back normal. Is this the only reason? I know I said my 1min .mov seems to play just fine in Vegas 9 but I wonder what a 30 minute clip(s) would do and I also wonder if I may end up with video/audio sync issues? I need to know whether if I need to convert my .mov files to a more compliant windows standard avi for editing.
3. I tried out MPEG Streamclip and downloaded and installed the Avid DnxHD codec but when I opened my .mov footage and performed the convert to avi and selected this codec (there were several and I’m trying to recall as I’m not at the computer now, but I chose the DnxHD one and then opened the properties and selected the 797? for color, not RGB and then the buggy dropdown window to the resample/sizes… I tried all of the 1080/24 ones, the 10bit one and the 4 or so 8bit ones and none of my players nor Vegas 9 would recognize it and it would only play the sound). This is where I’ll speak to this later and provide screen shots for clearer help. So then I went out to Cineform and grabbed their 7 day trial of Neo Scene and installed it and converted the .mov and it was fast and simple and I recall seeing in the output log something to the extent of converting to 29.97fps and something else to do with color maybe. That resultant avi loaded fine in Vegas 9 and it also seemed to play a bit smoother but I also noticed the gamma seemed higher and the contrast/color a bit more washed out.

Once I determine whether I need or do not need to convert my .mov footage, I’ll then take each step for a proper web render (MP4?) and proper SD DVD render and ask specific questions with screen shots. BTW, I want to use Vegas since I’m comfortable doing my simple edits such as deleting clips, cross-fades, and titles.

Thanks,
Roy

[Roy Niswanger]

*update...verified forum uses img bbc tags, yet the screen shots didn't resolve...only link...perhaps it's my account status since I'm new...sorry I guess the link will have to do.

Okay first few steps...taking the Cineform Neo Scene route for starters.

Source is HD .mov from 5D MkII

I ran Cineform Neo Scene and selected two short .mov clips and here are a few screen shots:

http://www.motleypixel.com/public/posts/cineform_5D.jpg

Looks good, any changes?

Then I fired up Vegas 9 and went to File>Properties Dialogue then clicked on the yellow folder in the top right and selected one of the resultant Neo Scene avi files and it gave me this source template settings:

http://www.motleypixel.com/public/po...properties.jpg

Leave these as-is or change some things? Starting at the top, should field order be "none progressive"? Pixel format is 8bit...okay not sure what this is about but the Neo Scene log mentions 10bit but the only other two options are 32bit video levels or full range. I assume full-resolution rendering quality should be set to best? Motion blurr and deinterlace method set okay?

Alright this is enough for the first couple of steps...once I get these down, I'll move onto rendering (I'll skip edit since I'm okay with these steps).

Thanks,
Roy

[Perrone Ford]

Someone who is familiar with Cineform is going to have to review this stuff for me. BUT, the Vegas stuff is all wrong. That stuff SHOULD be coming in as 1080p, Progressive Frames, Full Resolution Rendering should be best, Deinterlace options should be none. The "Adjust Source" checkbox shouldn't be on either.

As for 8-bit or 32-bit, I always work in 32bit unless I am just cutting. 8-bit gives more speed on the timeline, but if you plan on adding any effects, doing any color balancing or grading, etc, then this should be 32 bit. So it's fine to leave things at 8--bit while you sort out your timeline, get the clips in place, etc. After that, and before you do any finishing work, change to 32 bit.

Hopefully, someone can tell you why your Cineform files are triggering these crazy settings in Vegas.

[Thomas Moore]

I had the same question, about the Cineform files and here was my answer

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/cineform...ml#post1463836

So yes manually change it...

Rest follow Perrone's advice, I do :)

[Brian Luce]

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

Another VERY speedy option is to transcode your footage to the MXF container. Vegas Pro 9 now includes a very good 50Mbps 422 codec. It should be sufficient for preserving most of the quality of the 5D footage..

I get an error message every time I try and render out with this.

[Roy Niswanger]

Well I know why the Cineform files show as interlaced thanks to Thomas for providing the link that explains it. So I just need to manually change these settings in Vegas and save the template and make it such that all future source files use these settings.

Perrone, thank you for the help too; just a bit more clarification please. The pixel format defaulted to 8bit but had two other 32bit settings (I forgot and don't have access to the app right now). Do you know what the other two 32bit choices are and what you recommend for final render as MP4 for web and SD DVD? Also, you said it was okay to leave as 8bit while moving clips around but any editing change it to 32bit. So I can simply go to File>Properties and change it to one of the 32bit settings and I'll be okay?

Last, just to cover all settings, what about Motion blur type?

About the only thing I might want to get checked out like you said was my Cineform Neo Scene settings, but it seemed pretty straight forward.

Seems to me that I really need Neo Scene to convert my .mov 5D files otherwise my resultant footage may not look right, correct? I’m just trying to figure out the utility of having Neo Scene.

Next few questions and steps will be screen shots of the render settings for MP4 (web) and SD DVD.

Thanks,
Roy

[Perrone Ford]

Oh man,

What a mess. Ok, let's try to do this simply.

The selection of 32 or 8 bit has to do with how Vegas handles color in it's internal processing. So do all your cutting and editing in 8-bit, then do color correction in 32 bit. WHICH 32 bit mode really has a lot to do with what you have on the timeline, and what your final files will be. This is a tricky issue with no one correct answer. For research into this, head to Glenn Chan's site where he does a terrific job of breaking down the issue.

Glennchan.info

Please note that I have linked you to the Vegas 8 article. The link to the Vegas 9 color stuff is right in the first sentence. BUT I suggest you read the Vegas 8 stuff first because there is some background info there, which does not appear in the Vegas 9 article.

As for NeoScene and the 5D, no you don't have to use it, and I don't. It does make things easier on your editor. There are lots of ways to work with 5D footage, and NeoScene is one of the better ways.

[Roy Niswanger]

Perrone,

Thanks again for the help here. I read Glenn's stuff on color and most of it's over my head right now, but it's a great reference for when I'm more mature with the process. So now I've decided to choose 32bit full range with other correction settings show in the following screen shot (saved as Cineform template):

http://www.motleypixel.com/public/po...w_settings.jpg

Now onto the next steps and I'll keep them baby steps so my posts don't continue to become short books.

My goal is to produce an SD DVD 740 X 480 to play on a standard DVD player hooked up to a wide screen LCD 1080p via HDMI. My thought here is to encode straight to MPEG-2 using Main Concept and resize, but reading this thread doens't seem to point in that direction as a good direction to go. I would like to stay as much as possible w/in Vegas, but going out and using V-Dub is not a problem for me.

So which way AVI or MPEG-2 from Vegas? If AVI for downsize in V-Dub then which template is best, default uncompressed or the = 1080-60i YUV template?

Thanks,
Roy

[Perrone Ford]

LOL! I had to read Glenn's stuff 3 times before I got it! No worries there man, it's heady stuff. You'll find that you develop a basic workflow where things come out right. Then you tend to stay with it. I stay in 32bit linear mode for all my work, but I tend to work with .MOV files and they expect that.

Ok, now for the issue of DVD production. There are really two ways to do this.

1. Do the DVDA template (widescreen) and build the DVD in DVDA and burn. This method works. However, it will not give optimum results.

2. For better results, you need to do the downscale in VDub (or some use Avisynth but I prefer vdub). Uncompressed is certainly one option, but I suggest you download and install the lagarith codec. It is lossless, but makes MUCH smaller files than uncompressed. And is a lot easier on the hard drives too.

http://lags.leetcode.net/LagarithSetup_1320.exe

Once you install that, the Lagarith codec will be available from all your video applications. It also supports multithreaded rendering so it's a bit faster than most codecs.

In VDub, you'll be downsizing to 720x480. Then exporting a lagarith encoded .AVI to bring back to Vegas. From there, make a widescreen NTSC project, drop the AVI file in, and do your Mpeg2 Widescreen render.

-P

Originally Posted by Roy Niswanger

My goal is to produce an SD DVD 740 X 480 to play on a standard DVD player hooked up to a wide screen LCD 1080p via HDMI. My thought here is to encode straight to MPEG-2 using Main Concept and resize, but reading this thread doens't seem to point in that direction as a good direction to go. I would like to stay as much as possible w/in Vegas, but going out and using V-Dub is not a problem for me.

So which way AVI or MPEG-2 from Vegas? If AVI for downsize in V-Dub then which template is best, default uncompressed or the = 1080-60i YUV template?

Thanks,
Roy

[Roy Niswanger]

Okay I'm following you and I'll go with route #2. Now for just a few minor quandaries...

So when I'm ready to render the to avi using lagarith I will have already done all my Vegas edits on the video. In addition I'll also render (same file name) the audio using the AC3 dolby codec (which reminds me...I render the avi w/o audio in this case right?). When I build the DVD I use TMPGenc and point it to the samename.avi/ac3

Where I'm somewhat confused is why I would bring the downscale avi from VDub back into Vegas? I'll be using TMPGenc DVD Author and it should be able to take that avi from VDub and the ac3 and convert to DVD just fine (I think?). Would Vegas do a better job?

I'll be doing some moving forward tomorrow and post any questions and screen shots if necessary.

****hold on, wait a minute...it seems i'm all screwed up in the flow then...so after the cineform convertion from 5D .mov to avi I open it in VDub next or Vegas? After re-reading your last post the flow doesn't work if I open in in Vegas-Edit-then render into ????-then open in VDub-then bring back into Vegas-then render mpeg2-then create with Tmpgenc...it seems it would only work if I open it into VDub and downsize it first right?

Also, now that I installed Lagarith codec, what would the difference be in downsizing avi in Vegas, per these render settings using Lagarith VS. VDub downsizing using Lagarith?

http://www.motleypixel.com/public/po...s_downsize.jpg

Thanks again!
Roy

[Chris Harding]

Hi Perrone

My apologies for throwing a spanner in the works but, seriously, I have become neurotic about getting the best quality from HD footage and honestly after doing identical clips in AVCHD to SD, Transcoded AVCHD to HDV (50mps) to SD, and Transcoded AVCHD to AVI to SD I CANNOT tell the difference between 3 clips, same subject matter, same lighting all run in sequence on a DVD. I have dragged friends and family in front of the brand new 42" TV and forced them to watch the 3 consecutive clips and the ONLY comment after wasting hours of making test DVD's is that the AVCHD to HDV footage seemed a little darker. Not one person including a critical stills photographer has been able to say "Oh yes, the first one is much sharper"

Is there REALLY a big resolution difference between the way you render HD to SD or it is because we are rendering PAL footage which technically is different to NTSC?????

I do all my weddings by transcoding HD direct to AVI cos it's way faster but after each wedding, yes, I start up with my little tests again to see if I need to render it differently but each and every time the test DVD shows no visable resolution difference!!!

Your very expert comments would be appreciated here!!! I can only think that HD to Widescreen NTSC DOES give a vastly lower resolutiion otherwise you guys wouldn't be going to so much effort with the render process!!!

Chris