Audio & Video Misaligned - Why?

Mike Kujbida · July 31st, 2009, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

Thanks Mike, handy feature. I've been using "Aspect Ratio" script, same thing?

Not reallly Jeff.
Here's a post explaining this that I grabbed some time ago.
I can't remember who the poster was or I'd give credit.

The Project Properties drive the preview.
For example, you keep Project Properties at DV and then add all HDV on the timeline.
As you play your project, Vegas scales the HDV to DV for preview -- result: your computer works harder and you probably can't sustain full frame rate.
So you should always set the Project Properties to match the majority of the clips on your timeline for the best playback performance.
It also makes sense to set with the output in mind, too (e.g. widescreen vs. 4:3).
Also note that all generated media, titles and such, are scaled to match the project properties, too so keep your resolutions and aspect ratio in mind for that, too.
When it comes to the render, you can indeed override the Project Properties and render to anything.
Vegas does its conversions during the render.

Mike Kujbida · July 31st, 2009, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Vivrette

Even if the source audio was recorded on the camera at the same time?

Some camcorders default to 12-bit mode and some record in 5.1 sound so it's always best to double-check.

Quote:

I'm 99% certain the source and project audio are the same sample rate (48k)

Odds are that they were but it never hurts to confirm it.

Seth Bloombaum · July 31st, 2009, 10:12 AM

Some ideas:

12-bit audio mode = 32KHz sample rate. Although what Mike wrote a couple posts up about what project settings are used for is correct and by the book, I suspect Audio Sample Rate is a bit of a blind spot, that Vegas depends on project settings to understand Rate, both for preview and render.

I've had to rerender audio when mixed sample rates are in use on one project. Hey, there's another possibility. Are you dead sure that all clips *are* the same sample rate?

In any case, Vegas should show you audio sample rate of a clip when you click on it in explorer - look down in the status area below the explorer window.

All this *seems* to be more of a problem on non-pro sound cards. Couldn't swear to this one, but onboard audio cards & soundblaster and such don't much like sample rate confusion, and may resample on the fly. Maybe.

*****
Wrong version of Cineform codec is in use by Vegas. This was once a common problem, but you don't hear about it much with current versions of V and C. You can confirm what Vegas is using: File | Render As | Video for Windows (*.AVI), select one of the HD digital intermediate templates, eg. HDV 1080-60i intermediate.

Select "Custom" and look at the video tab. Cineform (of some version) should be selected in the Video format field. The version displayed there should be what came with NeoScene, 5.0.6 is current, I think. The version that comes with Vegas is 2.5 or 2.8. If Vegas is seeing one of these older codecs, that could easily account for the problem.

The solution would be to update. If still problems with Vegas version, search or post over on the Cineform forum, or review docs at Cineform support, or send in a trouble ticket to Cineform.

****edit**** The solution would be to update Neoscene and see if that updates the codec available to Vegas****

It used to be that one had to find Vegas' version of cfhd.dll and rename to .old or something, but I thought that was fixed in later releases.

*****
Finally, I hate to say it and you hate to read it, but you've got a fairly complex acquisition and conversion to digital intermediate there. If there are no other solutions, the next step in troubleshooting would be to start simplifying acquisition and conversion, step by step, checking along the way, to see if you can identify a step/setting that mucks up sync.

*****

Unrelated issue - if you've gone through all that intermediate work to make your intermediate true 24p, Vegas project properties should be set to Deinterlace: None.

Unrelated issue - I also do about 85% of my cutting on the timeline. I find the trimmer invaluable when adding B-roll to an already-cut interview, and when cutting dramatic scenes that were shot cine-style, that is, multiple takes of the same action/dialog from different camera positions. Here is where you can easily use markers in the source media, and use Vegas' ersatz dual-monitor mode, which can really speed things up.

Jeff Vivrette · July 31st, 2009, 11:42 AM

Lots of great info. Let me digest and work through it and I'll report my findings.

Thank you very much!

Jeff Vivrette · July 31st, 2009, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum

Some ideas:
Are you dead sure that all clips *are* the same sample rate?

It's just one big clip. Sample rate is 48.

Quote:

Wrong version of Cineform codec is in use by Vegas. This was once a common problem, but you don't hear about it much with current versions of V and C. You can confirm what Vegas is using: File | Render As | Video for Windows (*.AVI), select one of the HD digital intermediate templates, eg. HDV 1080-60i intermediate.

Select "Custom" and look at the video tab. Cineform (of some version) should be selected in the Video format field. The version displayed there should be what came with NeoScene, 5.0.6 is current, I think. The version that comes with Vegas is 2.5 or 2.8. If Vegas is seeing one of these older codecs, that could easily account for the problem.

Both V & C are at version 5.1.4

I guess maybe I need to contact Cineform? Seems the ausio is getting screwed up upon capture maybe.

I've tried creating new projects and checking the settings, rendering, bringing directly to timeline, updated Cineform and captured using lastest, still sync issues.

What to do!!!???? I am stuck!!

Jeff Vivrette · August 2nd, 2009, 06:13 AM

As I look at this more, it appears that perhaps the video and audio may not be out of sync but that the persons mouth moving in the video has some "missing fragments" (for lack of a better word) that make it appear to be out of sync with the audio. I am in the process of uploading a sample for you to review.

Jeff Harper · August 2nd, 2009, 07:06 AM

Jeff, I might be off track.

Are you saying the original footage may be what is off?

First, have you put the m2t file (forget cineform for a minute) directly on the timeline and played it on the timeline to see how it plays?

Verify for us that the original m2t file plays correctly or not on the timeline. You do not need to upload a sample for that, unless I am missing something here.

If you have not done this and find the original file was the issue than you have just wasted a ton of time.

If you have already verified the original footage is fine and I missed that then disregard post.

Seth Bloombaum · August 2nd, 2009, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Vivrette

As I look at this more, it appears that perhaps the video and audio may not be out of sync but that the persons mouth moving in the video has some "missing fragments" (for lack of a better word) that make it appear to be out of sync with the audio. I am in the process of uploading a sample for you to review.

Jeff V., you might have hit it this time.

Call this "frame-drops". If this is indeed the case, it might result from insufficient disk speed, processor power, or such resources being used by other programs/processes during capture.

Captured with direct conversion to cineform - no M2T created? The one-step process direct to Cineform takes a lot of resources.

Jeff H. is right, you can narrow in on this by capturing some footage using Vegas in the default M2T format, see how that looks.

You can also try using cineform cap again using Medium or Low quality as a test (use less system resources). Medium is darn good. My info may be dated here - it's been some time since I did Cineform capture.

What are the specs of your editing PC? Do they meet the minimums for Neoscene's system requirements? Do you have non-essential background processes turned off? What drive are you capturing to? Are you running *any* other software during capture with Neoscene?

Alternative workflows that use less system resources would include capturing as M2T for later processing to Cineform, or, working with M2T on the timeline.

I'd guess you're using Cineform because it deals with Canon's 24F mode rather well? If so, there's nothing wrong with capture to M2T and later conversion with Neoscene - no generations are lost. It just takes a bit more time...

Jeff Vivrette · August 2nd, 2009, 02:20 PM

I didn't think to try capturing to Vegas and testing for a sync issue. I'll do that.

I am using NeoScene to use with Canon's 24F, yes. Not sure how to convert the footage after the fact. I'll look at that as well.

In the meantime, heres an uploaded clip for your review. No color correction, etc.

http://vimeo.com/5888647

Jeff Harper · August 2nd, 2009, 03:42 PM

I didn't realized you captured via Cineform, my bad. Capture the m2t files directly. You need to start at the beginning and work from there to find your issue.

July 31st, 2009, 10:12 AM	#18
Seth Bloombaum Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,420	Some ideas: 12-bit audio mode = 32KHz sample rate. Although what Mike wrote a couple posts up about what project settings are used for is correct and by the book, I suspect Audio Sample Rate is a bit of a blind spot, that Vegas depends on project settings to understand Rate, both for preview and render. I've had to rerender audio when mixed sample rates are in use on one project. Hey, there's another possibility. Are you dead sure that all clips are the same sample rate? In any case, Vegas should show you audio sample rate of a clip when you click on it in explorer - look down in the status area below the explorer window. All this seems to be more of a problem on non-pro sound cards. Couldn't swear to this one, but onboard audio cards & soundblaster and such don't much like sample rate confusion, and may resample on the fly. Maybe. ***** Wrong version of Cineform codec is in use by Vegas. This was once a common problem, but you don't hear about it much with current versions of V and C. You can confirm what Vegas is using: File \| Render As \| Video for Windows (.AVI), select one of the HD digital intermediate templates, eg. HDV 1080-60i intermediate. Select "Custom" and look at the video tab. Cineform (of some version) should be selected in the Video format field. The version displayed there should be what came with NeoScene, 5.0.6 is current, I think. The version that comes with Vegas is 2.5 or 2.8. If Vegas is seeing one of these older codecs, that could easily account for the problem. The solution would be to update. If still problems with Vegas version, search or post over on the Cineform forum, or review docs at Cineform support, or send in a trouble ticket to Cineform. *edit The solution would be to update Neoscene and see if that updates the codec available to Vegas It used to be that one had to find Vegas' version of cfhd.dll and rename to .old or something, but I thought that was fixed in later releases. * Finally, I hate to say it and you hate to read it, but you've got a fairly complex acquisition and conversion to digital intermediate there. If there are no other solutions, the next step in troubleshooting would be to start simplifying acquisition and conversion, step by step, checking along the way, to see if you can identify a step/setting that mucks up sync. *** Unrelated issue - if you've gone through all that intermediate work to make your intermediate true 24p, Vegas project properties should be set to Deinterlace: None. Unrelated issue - I also do about 85% of my cutting on the timeline. I find the trimmer invaluable when adding B-roll to an already-cut interview, and when cutting dramatic scenes that were shot cine-style, that is, multiple takes of the same action/dialog from different camera positions. Here is where you can easily use markers in the source media, and use Vegas' ersatz dual-monitor mode, which can really speed things up. __________________ 30 years of pro media production. Vegas user since 1.0. Webcaster since 1997. Freelancer since 2000. College instructor since 2001. Last edited by Seth Bloombaum; July 31st, 2009 at 01:55 PM. Reason: Clarified update solution

August 2nd, 2009, 07:06 AM	#22
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Jeff, I might be off track. Are you saying the original footage may be what is off? First, have you put the m2t file (forget cineform for a minute) directly on the timeline and played it on the timeline to see how it plays? Verify for us that the original m2t file plays correctly or not on the timeline. You do not need to upload a sample for that, unless I am missing something here. If you have not done this and find the original file was the issue than you have just wasted a ton of time. If you have already verified the original footage is fine and I missed that then disregard post. Last edited by Jeff Harper; August 2nd, 2009 at 07:57 AM.

July 31st, 2009, 11:42 AM	#19
Jeff Vivrette New Boot Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Ypsilanti, Michigan Posts: 12	Lots of great info. Let me digest and work through it and I'll report my findings. Thank you very much!

August 2nd, 2009, 06:13 AM	#21
Jeff Vivrette New Boot Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Ypsilanti, Michigan Posts: 12	As I look at this more, it appears that perhaps the video and audio may not be out of sync but that the persons mouth moving in the video has some "missing fragments" (for lack of a better word) that make it appear to be out of sync with the audio. I am in the process of uploading a sample for you to review.

August 2nd, 2009, 02:20 PM	#24
Jeff Vivrette New Boot Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Ypsilanti, Michigan Posts: 12	I didn't think to try capturing to Vegas and testing for a sync issue. I'll do that. I am using NeoScene to use with Canon's 24F, yes. Not sure how to convert the footage after the fact. I'll look at that as well. In the meantime, heres an uploaded clip for your review. No color correction, etc. http://vimeo.com/5888647

August 2nd, 2009, 03:42 PM	#25
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	I didn't realized you captured via Cineform, my bad. Capture the m2t files directly. You need to start at the beginning and work from there to find your issue.