1080p or proxies for rendering? at DVinfo.net

Jeff Harper · June 30th, 2009, 10:43 AM

OK here's my dilemma. Wedding shot in 1080i.

It's edited and ready for render. My choices as I see it are:

1. Render Gearshift proxies

2. Change aspect ratio of the video and render 1080i footage to 60i. I would have to change aspect ratios to fit screen because there are photos mixed in with video and they fill the screen and the video doesn't unless I change the aspect ratio of the video.

If you've done both what kind of difference in quality have you seen?

Jeff Harper · June 30th, 2009, 10:53 AM

I think I have the answer, but I'm not sure.

Here's what I came up with.

1. Have project properties set at 1080i. Before I had it set to 720.

2. Use Aspect Ratio Script to adjust photos.

3. Render HD footage to 720i.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Perrone Ford · June 30th, 2009, 11:24 AM

You've neglected to tell us what it is you are trying to accomplish, so we can't offer any thoughts.

Jeff Harper · June 30th, 2009, 11:27 AM

I want to render to 720 16:9 for a DVD. I'm burning version where I rendered proxies now and I'm rendering HD footage now and I'll burn it and see which looks better...

Amazingly my PC is rendering the 90 minutes of HD footage to 720i in under 40 minutes....not bad.

Perrone Ford · June 30th, 2009, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Harper

I want to render to 720 16:9 for a DVD. I'm burning version where I rendered proxies now and I'm rendering HD footage now and I'll burn it and see which looks better...

Amazingly my PC is rendering the 90 minutes of HD footage to 720i in under 40 minutes....not bad.

I think I am even MORE confused!

If you are burning a DVD, you are burning 480i right? 720 is an HD format and you'd need to go to BluRay for that...

If you originally shot in 1080/60i, you'll need a good downres and a good deinterlace. How are you accomplishing those two things? I wouldn't use Vegas for either task.

Jeff Harper · June 30th, 2009, 12:12 PM

Yes, I'm sorry, I'm downconverting in Vegas to 480, not 720 (I was thinking 720x480 but using wrong number to represent what I meant.)

Jeff Harper · June 30th, 2009, 12:22 PM

Well, I've tried rendering gearshift proxies (480i) and also rendered the original 1080 footage to 480i and I see no difference at all in the final product, it appears to be exactly the same.

Martin Wiosna · June 30th, 2009, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

I wouldn't use Vegas for either task.

Since I don't know the answer I'm asking....why not?

Jeff Harper · June 30th, 2009, 07:30 PM

Vegas rendered the 1080 to 480 just fine. This just confirms for me there is virtually no point to shooting HD for SD delivery. I'm certainly not doubling my storage capacity to accomodate HD footage unnecessarily.

Perrone Ford · June 30th, 2009, 09:30 PM

Jeff, you are drawing a conclusion from faulty logic. Just because VEGAS erases the difference between shooting HD for SD doesn't mean that there is no difference. In fact that can be a MASSIVE difference but you're going to need better tools to see it.

I've outlined my HD to SD workflow on here in the past. If you do a search on here for "Lanczos" and my name, I am sure my workflow will come up.

Perrone Ford · June 30th, 2009, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Wiosna

Since I don't know the answer I'm asking....why not?

Because the methods Vegas uses to accomplish both tasks is quite crude. In fact, most NLEs are very bad at both deinterlacing and resizing. I use specialized tools to do both and am thrilled with my results. I've posted evidence of how cleanly this can be done when done correctly. It makes a massive difference.

Oddly enough, I just did this again tonight. Rendered a 1080/24p project down to a 480p for DVD distribution.

Jeff Harper · June 30th, 2009, 09:47 PM

Thanks Perrone. Imagine being 12 or more wedding deep as I am at this time. Now imagine the time involved in processing HD for delivery in SD, not to mention the storage space. This current project with proxies was 310GB.

I truthfully don't care how much improvement is made, I'm not shooting HD for SD delivery for any reason, it doesn't make any sense whatsover for my purposes.

I shot the above project before I stopped shooting in HD, which is the only reason I had this issue.

The final results were absolutely fine as it turned out, but it is good to know for the future there are other ways to accomplish the task.

Perrone Ford · June 30th, 2009, 10:20 PM

Oh ok, you're in a hurry! Then yes, HD for SD would make little sense.. except in one case.

If you shoot in HD, you can ALWAYS keep an HD master in case your clients decide 5 years from now, they'd REALLY like to have an HD copy of their wedding. But outside of that, shooting to SD is far more expedient.

Jeff Harper · June 30th, 2009, 10:39 PM

Yes, shooting in HD for the purpose of archiving would be nice...

I have a vague plan to offer HD delivery at some point...just haven't gotten around to it yet.

June 30th, 2009, 10:43 AM	#1
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	1080p or proxies for rendering? OK here's my dilemma. Wedding shot in 1080i. It's edited and ready for render. My choices as I see it are: 1. Render Gearshift proxies 2. Change aspect ratio of the video and render 1080i footage to 60i. I would have to change aspect ratios to fit screen because there are photos mixed in with video and they fill the screen and the video doesn't unless I change the aspect ratio of the video. If you've done both what kind of difference in quality have you seen?

June 30th, 2009, 11:24 AM	#3
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	You've neglected to tell us what it is you are trying to accomplish, so we can't offer any thoughts. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

June 30th, 2009, 12:12 PM	#6
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Yes, I'm sorry, I'm downconverting in Vegas to 480, not 720 (I was thinking 720x480 but using wrong number to represent what I meant.) Last edited by Jeff Harper; June 30th, 2009 at 07:28 PM.

June 30th, 2009, 09:30 PM	#10
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	Jeff, you are drawing a conclusion from faulty logic. Just because VEGAS erases the difference between shooting HD for SD doesn't mean that there is no difference. In fact that can be a MASSIVE difference but you're going to need better tools to see it. I've outlined my HD to SD workflow on here in the past. If you do a search on here for "Lanczos" and my name, I am sure my workflow will come up. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

June 30th, 2009, 10:20 PM	#13
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	Oh ok, you're in a hurry! Then yes, HD for SD would make little sense.. except in one case. If you shoot in HD, you can ALWAYS keep an HD master in case your clients decide 5 years from now, they'd REALLY like to have an HD copy of their wedding. But outside of that, shooting to SD is far more expedient. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

June 30th, 2009, 10:53 AM	#2
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	I think I have the answer, but I'm not sure. Here's what I came up with. 1. Have project properties set at 1080i. Before I had it set to 720. 2. Use Aspect Ratio Script to adjust photos. 3. Render HD footage to 720i. Anyone have any thoughts?

June 30th, 2009, 11:27 AM	#4
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	I want to render to 720 16:9 for a DVD. I'm burning version where I rendered proxies now and I'm rendering HD footage now and I'll burn it and see which looks better... Amazingly my PC is rendering the 90 minutes of HD footage to 720i in under 40 minutes....not bad.

June 30th, 2009, 12:22 PM	#7
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Well, I've tried rendering gearshift proxies (480i) and also rendered the original 1080 footage to 480i and I see no difference at all in the final product, it appears to be exactly the same.

June 30th, 2009, 07:30 PM	#9
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Vegas rendered the 1080 to 480 just fine. This just confirms for me there is virtually no point to shooting HD for SD delivery. I'm certainly not doubling my storage capacity to accomodate HD footage unnecessarily.

June 30th, 2009, 09:47 PM	#12
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Thanks Perrone. Imagine being 12 or more wedding deep as I am at this time. Now imagine the time involved in processing HD for delivery in SD, not to mention the storage space. This current project with proxies was 310GB. I truthfully don't care how much improvement is made, I'm not shooting HD for SD delivery for any reason, it doesn't make any sense whatsover for my purposes. I shot the above project before I stopped shooting in HD, which is the only reason I had this issue. The final results were absolutely fine as it turned out, but it is good to know for the future there are other ways to accomplish the task.

June 30th, 2009, 10:39 PM	#14
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Yes, shooting in HD for the purpose of archiving would be nice... I have a vague plan to offer HD delivery at some point...just haven't gotten around to it yet.