BR on DVD?

[Jack Bellford]

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens

I'm afraid not.....in my experience you can burn a BD to DVD disk, but, you have to burn it on a BD burner. Red and blue are different wavelengths of light. Hence, the data is, literally, burned on the disk at a different packet spacing. A BD player expects to see the packet spacing produced by the blue laser.

This is just plain wrong in just about EVERY way.

First of all DVD doesn't even support blu laser.

Blu Ray dvd's (better known as avchd disks) are written from a normal dvd burner to a normal dvd... and they're written in the UDF 2.5 (or 2.6) format.

On playback the disks are read from the RED laser. The blue laser has absolutely NOTHING to do with these kinds of disks in any way, shape, or form.

You can create these disks with or without menus and you can write them with avc or mpeg2.

If you're playing back from a computer than you MUST use a special player (software) that can read UDF2.5 disks.... particularly when using XP which can't understand UDF2.5 AT ALL. (Vista is a little better in this respect). A normal dvd burner can WRITE udf2.5 but it can't READ it without some help from software interpretation.

When playing back in a stand alone player you must make sure the machine supports it because these disks are not written into the blu ray spec and therefore is not fully supported across the board.

You need to do some research on these things Bill.

[Bill Ravens]

whatever, jack

[Paul Cascio]

There's always been a lot of confusion about Blu-ray. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there are three elements to be considered: Content, Menu Structure, and the Physical Media it's written to.

I believe you only need a Blu-ray burner if you want to be able to write to Blu-ray Disk media (BD) or use Blu-ray menu structures. This is a seperate issue from the high-def content placed on a disk. You can place that HD content, which can be either H264, or MPEG2, or even WMV on any DVD or BD disk. BD is used for feature length material simply because it holds 25GB/50GB instead of the 5GB/9GB capacity DVD.

[Jack Bellford]

Originally Posted by Paul Cascio

I believe you only need a Blu-ray burner if you want to be able to write to Blu-ray Disk media (BD)

Correct... but you can also do full menus (including motion menus) on
high def DVD media as well.

As you more or less point out, people are getting the 2 media types mixed up with software formats and such. Pretty much anything you can do with a BD burner and BD media can be done on DVD with a normal burner. The only difference of course being that REAL bd will give you access to higher bitrates, more bandwidths, and more space.

You simply need to do some research on playback machines and methods because "avchd disks" are not fully supported across the board.... and in XP it's not really supported at all.

[Steven Reid]

Originally Posted by Paul Cascio

There's always been a lot of confusion about Blu-ray. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think there are three elements to be considered: Content, Menu Structure, and the Physical Media it's written to.

I believe you only need a Blu-ray burner if you want to be able to write to Blu-ray Disk media (BD) or use Blu-ray menu structures. This is a seperate issue from the high-def content placed on a disk. You can place that HD content, which can be either H264, or MPEG2, or even WMV on any DVD or BD disk. BD is used for feature length material simply because it holds 25GB/50GB instead of the 5GB/9GB capacity DVD.

Yes, this is more or less what I was trying to address, however clumsily, by identifying my elements 1-4 above. Some posters here write of success, though it seems, contrary to performing all of my elements 1-4, that they are (a) burning a BR project directly from the Vegas timeline to standard DVD, which then plays in a set top BR player, or (b) rendering directly from the Vegas timeline to a single file for playback on, for instance, a PS3.

What I'm seeing here is that burning a BR project authored in DVD Architect, complete with menus authored in DVD Architect, to a standard DVD may nonetheless require use of a BR burner. The standard DVD disk with its high definition BR content and menus may play on a set top BR player, but it might not play back on a computer unless one has software installed for playback of BR projects. Yes?

[Ron Chau]

Originally Posted by Steven Reid

Yes, this is more or less what I was trying to address, however clumsily, by identifying my elements 1-4 above. Some posters here write of success, though it seems, contrary to performing all of my elements 1-4, that they are (a) burning a BR project directly from the Vegas timeline to standard DVD, which then plays in a set top BR player, or (b) rendering directly from the Vegas timeline to a single file for playback on, for instance, a PS3.

What I'm seeing here is that burning a BR project authored in DVD Architect, complete with menus authored in DVD Architect, to a standard DVD may nonetheless require use of a BR burner. The standard DVD disk with its high definition BR content and menus may play on a set top BR player, but it might not play back on a computer unless one has software installed for playback of BR projects. Yes?

I did your option (a). Last night also rendered in Vegas, but burned in DVD architect adding a menu. I only have a dvd burner. I use Vegas 8c and DVD architect 5.

If you are going to playback on a computer, why make a blueray disk ? Why not render to an HD file format like MP4, M2t, etc., and play on computer with quicktime, windows media player, etc. ?

[Shaun Roemich]

I've written HD-DVD material (also a blue laser format) to a DVD-R using my iMac SuperDrive (red laser only) and played it back successfully in an HD-DVD player, for what it's worth.

[Pavel Houda]

Please look at the linked page at BD-5 and BD-9: Blu-ray Disc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . There is a specification of Blu-ray streams burned on DVD and DVD-DL media. The BD drives include red laser for downward compatibility, within it. The standard DVD can be burned on either burner and read on either reader. The BD can only be burned/read on Blu-ray burner/reader. In order to play the streams on a computer, one has to have the proper player S/W. Most Blu-ray players are compatible with the BD-5/9 spec, some are not. PS-3 will play BD-5/9 created by VP-8 and DVD Architect 5 (including menus), just fine. Same goes for Final Cut and Roxio Toast 9/10 in the Mac world. The streams are MPEG-2, AVC or VC-1 (variety of WMV). I burn and play the BD-5/9 routinely on DVD+/-R's because I don't need to burn anything longer than about 1Hr20Min (rough BD-9 capacity) and because the BD media is still too expensive. It all works including the menu's and streams.

[Steven Reid]

Originally Posted by Ron Chau

If you are going to playback on a computer, why make a blueray disk ? Why not render to an HD file format like MP4, M2t, etc., and play on computer with quicktime, windows media player, etc. ?

Thanks, Ron. I want to use my Samsung set top player. Simple as that. Otherwise I'd probably use the method you describe.

Originally Posted by Pavel Houda

Please look at the linked page at BD-5 and BD-9: Blu-ray Disc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia . There is a specification of Blu-ray streams burned on DVD and DVD-DL media. The BD drives include red laser for downward compatibility, within it. The standard DVD can be burned on either burner and read on either reader. The BD can only be burned/read on Blu-ray burner/reader. In order to play the streams on a computer, one has to have the proper player S/W. Most Blu-ray players are compatible with the BD-5/9 spec, some are not. PS-3 will play BD-5/9 created by VP-8 and DVD Architect 5 (including menus), just fine. Same goes for Final Cut and Roxio Toast 9/10 in the Mac world. The streams are MPEG-2, AVC or VC-1 (variety of WMV). I burn and play the BD-5/9 routinely on DVD+/-R's because I don't need to burn anything longer than about 1Hr20Min (rough BD-9 capacity) and because the BD media is still too expensive. It all works including the menu's and streams.

Pavel, thanks for the link. According to that Wikipedia entry and your comments, either cited "variant" of the BR specification can be burned onto regular DVDs, but it's hit and miss with respect to what player will actually play discs burned in such a manner, e.g., PS3, set top player. Once I get up and running, I will just have to try and see with my player.

Steve

[Ron Chau]

The BR discs I've made on DVD with a DVD burner through Vegas and DVD architect play great on my Samsung 1500 blueray player. I haven't tried other players.

You have the right idea. Nothing better than trying it out yourself on your own equipment. I suspect newer BR players will work fine, especially your new Samsung because my older Samsung works fine.

[Bill Ravens]

Ron...
the only reason to playback on the computer, that I can see, is to test the burn.

what firmware version do you have on your samsung?

[Ron Chau]

I haven't upgraded the firmware.

[Jack Bellford]

Originally Posted by Shaun Roemich

I've written HD-DVD material (also a blue laser format) to a DVD-R using my iMac SuperDrive (red laser only) and played it back successfully in an HD-DVD player, for what it's worth.

Yes,
HD DVD is very much the same as Blu Ray on dvd media. The disk gets written in a UDF2.5 format and can be played back in HD DVD players (or computers with the proper software).

In fact it was Toshiba/Microsoft and HD DVD that started all of this 'high def on dvd media' stuff in the first place. Ulead Movie Factory 5, I believe it was that was the first one to introduce high def dvd media and the burning of it onto DVD media.

High def on dvd media BTW, IS an official part of the HD DVD spec (they're actually called 3X DVD), whereas the blu ray equivalent (unofficially dubbed 'avchd disks') is NOT included in the spec.

[Tom Roper]

I've covered this so many times, I don't know where to begin. I'll just confirm what Jack Bellford has been saying.

And NO, you don't need a BR burner for red laser disks. And yes, you can have a lot of the full menu functionality minus BD Java. That includes motion menus, subtitles, multiple audio and video tracks.

But I should point out that Vegas Pro or DVD Architect burns true Blu-ray structures, so when you put that on red laser media, some players will see it as a data disk, like the PS3. Since the PS3 represents countless millions of players, you're shooting yourself in the foot if you don't make PS3 compatible red laser disks. There is a hack for making Vegas and DVD-Architect Blu-ray compilations playable on the PS3. If you don't do the hack, your Vegas and DVD Architect projects will not play with menu functionality on the PS3 from red laser media.

BD-5 and BD-9 are often confused with home brewed red laser disks because they share the same media type, but they actually are true Blu-ray and...THEY DON'T EXIST. What home enthusiasts have been making are AVCHD disk structures that contain AVC or mpeg2 or mkv streams. The AVCHD folder structure is very similar to the Blu-ray folder structure.

Not all Blu-ray players play AVCHD disks, or BD-R/RE for that matter. The only Blu-ray disk type that will play in all players is the commercial titles on pressings. BD-R/RE burned media may not play on all players, may not carry a Blu-ray logo added by you, although it may carry the Blu-ray logo of the blank disk manufacturer. A wedding photographer can use the wording "Blu-ray Disk" or "Blu-ray compatible" but not the logo, nor can he purchase the right to use the logo for BD-R/RE media.

There is no AVCHD disk on red laser that will play on every player, although most every player that supports AVCHD can be targeted to play a disk. In other words, if you know the player the disk will be played on, you can author a playable disk for that machine.

I've started threads on the subject here, there are threads at AVSforum and doom9. It's far too much to learn overnight. I've been burning Blu-ray playable disks (and HD DVD) on red laser media, with attractive motion menus for years now, both mpeg2 and AVC.

But remember this, Blu-ray is and will remain a mess. It's the best we have but it's still a lousy distribution format for independents.

[John Peterson]

What would be really helpful, I think is if those who have had success burning BR from Vegas or DVDA 5 to a compliant standard DVD would post a detailed step by step procedure with settings in this thread.


John