Vegas Vs. Final Cut Pro

Milt Lee · March 18th, 2004, 11:39 PM

I haven't explored all the capabilities yet, but from what I can see so far is that you can add about 20 different plugins to any track, or audio event on a track. You can have multiple tracks, you can mix each one seperately, and you can even connect the tracks to an external editor. I use SAWSTUDIO, which unfortunately doesn't seem to connect to Vegas, but I can do pretty much everything that I want right in Vegas, so that's not an issue for me.

I've never seen anything like that in a video program before. I've used pinnacle, media studio pro 7.0 and while MSP had multiple tracks, it was really tough to do much with it.

Milt Lee

Ignacio Rodriguez · March 19th, 2004, 08:41 AM

Sounds good (no pun intended). FCP4 can do most of what you mention (of course DirectX is not available under the Mac OS, here the plug-in standard is called Audio Units). However FCP cannot record more than two tracks simultaneously as far as I know (it might be able to capture 4 tracks from DV). So this could be a huge difference. In a pro recording envirnment, you have to use another program. But for most audio-for-video work there does not seem to be anything specific that Vegas will do and FCP will not.

Does Vegas come with a denoise plug-in?

Edward Troxel · March 19th, 2004, 09:29 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : But for most audio-for-video work there does not seem to be anything specific that Vegas will do and FCP will not.

Does Vegas come with a denoise plug-in? -->>>

FCP probably contains all of the same basic tools for general audio touch-up. However, I would contend that Vegas does the job better coming from an audio background. Here's some more information:

http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.co...FeatureTL=6877

Audio
Audio recording, editing, and mixing
24-bit/96 kHz audio support
5.1 surround mixing tools
DirectX® plug-in effects automation
Includes over 30 DirectX® audio effects
ASIO driver support
Record Input Monitoring
Real-time record meters
32 assignable effects and 26 Master and Aux outputs
Solo or mute tracks
Master, auxiliary, and effects bus tracks

Vegas does not come standard with a "denoiser" unless you can apply some equilization techniques. However, Noise Reduction is available as an add-on product.

Ignacio Rodriguez · March 19th, 2004, 11:28 AM

FCP also has no noise reduction plug included either. You can also add from many vendors though. I asked because I think that would make a big difference. Yes, bussing and realtime audio capabilities are better in Vegas, but I have never felt the need for the in FCP. I wouldn't switch for that.

What seems most appealing to me is that Vegas seems to be able to render one project while you are working in another. That seems really interesting. It's not possible to do that in FCP, and I don't think it's possible to run two instances of the program at the same time. Never tried though...

Must be really great if you have enough hardware.

Rob Easler · March 19th, 2004, 11:40 AM

When I run 2 instances of Vegas it crashes spontaneously when I do a few undo's. That's about the only time it crashes.

Edward Troxel · March 19th, 2004, 11:58 AM

Running 2 instances can definitely be helpful in many situations. I believe it's the only major NLE that will allow that. I've never had a problem when running multiple instances.

Ted Springer · March 19th, 2004, 02:10 PM

Quote:

5.1 surround mixing tools

What tools are these? I do 5.1 in FCP all the time and get fantastic results. I am just wondering what specific tools for 5.1 Vegas might have.

Glen Elliott · March 19th, 2004, 02:19 PM

Vegas has a pan mixer in which a dot represents where you are in the sound field...you can simply drag the dot, or your location in relation to the 5.1 mix, around in real-time, and record all the changes.

Edward Troxel · March 19th, 2004, 03:26 PM

Ted, here's something else to try:

Select an area of the timeline and start playback. Now open up an effects dialog and start adjusting the controls while the timeline continues to loop that area showing the adjustments live. Audio adjustments can also be done live so you can immediately hear how what you are adjusting is affecting the clip.

Ignacio Rodriguez · March 20th, 2004, 01:52 PM

Well having advocated FCP so much, I would like to mention things I *don't* like about it so the Vegas gang can tell me if they have better luck.

(1) All effects (audio and video) can be automated. But I *hate* the timeline that appears in the clip window where you can access and manipulate effect parameters over time. It's an inteligent way of representing what's going on, but it's very difficult to work with because the segment of time you see is so small and the vertical axis on which you can move the parameters is also quite small and difficult to manipulate because of that. Perhaps there is a way to make it larger but it's not obvious enough for me to figure out.

(2) For me the the log & capture window is not easy to work with. I was able to easily set up batch captures in Premiere and it's been a headache for me to try to do the same thing in FCP so I usually end up capturing whole segments and then dividing them with the Find DV Start/Stop tool. It's good but consumes more disk space since I capture stuff I am not going to use.

(3) For some reason Print to Video seems to requiere more resources than I have, which is strange because if I output a DV QuickTime file and feed that directly over Firewire with another program (Simple VideoOut) my little computer does the job fine... so there is some redource management which is not optimal.

Ted Springer · March 20th, 2004, 03:44 PM

Try exporting a Quicktime DV and re-importing into a new FCP sequence. It'll probably play like butter as well. That's because it's all now a single linear file.

Ignacio Rodriguez · March 20th, 2004, 04:43 PM

> Try exporting a Quicktime DV and re-importing into a new
> FCP sequence. It'll probably play like butter as well.
> That's because it's all now a single linear file.

Thanks, I have tried that. Results are the same. Besides, video data is fragmented on the hard disk anyway, whether it's contained in a single file or across several. QuickTime is supposed to take good care of that.

Ted Springer · March 20th, 2004, 05:49 PM

I just checked and you are using a 400 Mhz laptop? Laptops are not known for blazing hard drive speed. And 400Mhz is near the bottom of FCP 4's recommended specs. I don't think Final Cut is to blame here. FCP has a ton more overhead than a simple video out program. Anyway it seems like you've found a workaround.

Jeff Donald · March 20th, 2004, 05:55 PM

A Titanium PowerBook is marginal, especially the 400 MHz one. Try maxing out the ram, faster and larger HD. Don't let your HD get over 70% full.

Ignacio Rodriguez · March 20th, 2004, 06:51 PM

Yes. My PB is like the slowest hardware on which FCP4 will run unhacked. Actually *was*. It's built-in video died a few days ago so it is bound to become a web server or something like that :'(

March 19th, 2004, 08:41 AM	#17
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	Sounds good (no pun intended). FCP4 can do most of what you mention (of course DirectX is not available under the Mac OS, here the plug-in standard is called Audio Units). However FCP cannot record more than two tracks simultaneously as far as I know (it might be able to capture 4 tracks from DV). So this could be a huge difference. In a pro recording envirnment, you have to use another program. But for most audio-for-video work there does not seem to be anything specific that Vegas will do and FCP will not. Does Vegas come with a denoise plug-in? __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

March 19th, 2004, 11:28 AM	#19
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	FCP also has no noise reduction plug included either. You can also add from many vendors though. I asked because I think that would make a big difference. Yes, bussing and realtime audio capabilities are better in Vegas, but I have never felt the need for the in FCP. I wouldn't switch for that. What seems most appealing to me is that Vegas seems to be able to render one project while you are working in another. That seems really interesting. It's not possible to do that in FCP, and I don't think it's possible to run two instances of the program at the same time. Never tried though... Must be really great if you have enough hardware. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

March 20th, 2004, 01:52 PM	#25
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	Well having advocated FCP so much, I would like to mention things I don't like about it so the Vegas gang can tell me if they have better luck. (1) All effects (audio and video) can be automated. But I hate the timeline that appears in the clip window where you can access and manipulate effect parameters over time. It's an inteligent way of representing what's going on, but it's very difficult to work with because the segment of time you see is so small and the vertical axis on which you can move the parameters is also quite small and difficult to manipulate because of that. Perhaps there is a way to make it larger but it's not obvious enough for me to figure out. (2) For me the the log & capture window is not easy to work with. I was able to easily set up batch captures in Premiere and it's been a headache for me to try to do the same thing in FCP so I usually end up capturing whole segments and then dividing them with the Find DV Start/Stop tool. It's good but consumes more disk space since I capture stuff I am not going to use. (3) For some reason Print to Video seems to requiere more resources than I have, which is strange because if I output a DV QuickTime file and feed that directly over Firewire with another program (Simple VideoOut) my little computer does the job fine... so there is some redource management which is not optimal. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

March 20th, 2004, 04:43 PM	#27
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	> Try exporting a Quicktime DV and re-importing into a new > FCP sequence. It'll probably play like butter as well. > That's because it's all now a single linear file. Thanks, I have tried that. Results are the same. Besides, video data is fragmented on the hard disk anyway, whether it's contained in a single file or across several. QuickTime is supposed to take good care of that. __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.

March 20th, 2004, 05:55 PM	#29
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	A Titanium PowerBook is marginal, especially the 400 MHz one. Try maxing out the ram, faster and larger HD. Don't let your HD get over 70% full. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

March 18th, 2004, 11:39 PM	#16
Milt Lee Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Cass Lake MN Posts: 221	I haven't explored all the capabilities yet, but from what I can see so far is that you can add about 20 different plugins to any track, or audio event on a track. You can have multiple tracks, you can mix each one seperately, and you can even connect the tracks to an external editor. I use SAWSTUDIO, which unfortunately doesn't seem to connect to Vegas, but I can do pretty much everything that I want right in Vegas, so that's not an issue for me. I've never seen anything like that in a video program before. I've used pinnacle, media studio pro 7.0 and while MSP had multiple tracks, it was really tough to do much with it. Milt Lee

March 19th, 2004, 09:29 AM	#18
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez : But for most audio-for-video work there does not seem to be anything specific that Vegas will do and FCP will not. Does Vegas come with a denoise plug-in? -->>> FCP probably contains all of the same basic tools for general audio touch-up. However, I would contend that Vegas does the job better coming from an audio background. Here's some more information: http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.co...FeatureTL=6877 Audio Audio recording, editing, and mixing 24-bit/96 kHz audio support 5.1 surround mixing tools DirectX® plug-in effects automation Includes over 30 DirectX® audio effects ASIO driver support Record Input Monitoring Real-time record meters 32 assignable effects and 26 Master and Aux outputs Solo or mute tracks Master, auxiliary, and effects bus tracks Vegas does not come standard with a "denoiser" unless you can apply some equilization techniques. However, Noise Reduction is available as an add-on product.

March 19th, 2004, 11:40 AM	#20
Rob Easler Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Naperville, IL Posts: 219	When I run 2 instances of Vegas it crashes spontaneously when I do a few undo's. That's about the only time it crashes.

March 19th, 2004, 11:58 AM	#21
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Running 2 instances can definitely be helpful in many situations. I believe it's the only major NLE that will allow that. I've never had a problem when running multiple instances.

March 19th, 2004, 02:19 PM	#23
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	Vegas has a pan mixer in which a dot represents where you are in the sound field...you can simply drag the dot, or your location in relation to the 5.1 mix, around in real-time, and record all the changes.

March 19th, 2004, 03:26 PM	#24
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Ted, here's something else to try: Select an area of the timeline and start playback. Now open up an effects dialog and start adjusting the controls while the timeline continues to loop that area showing the adjustments live. Audio adjustments can also be done live so you can immediately hear how what you are adjusting is affecting the clip.

March 20th, 2004, 03:44 PM	#26
Ted Springer Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Glendale CA Posts: 328	Try exporting a Quicktime DV and re-importing into a new FCP sequence. It'll probably play like butter as well. That's because it's all now a single linear file.

March 20th, 2004, 05:49 PM	#28
Ted Springer Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Glendale CA Posts: 328	I just checked and you are using a 400 Mhz laptop? Laptops are not known for blazing hard drive speed. And 400Mhz is near the bottom of FCP 4's recommended specs. I don't think Final Cut is to blame here. FCP has a ton more overhead than a simple video out program. Anyway it seems like you've found a workaround.

March 20th, 2004, 06:51 PM	#30
Ignacio Rodriguez Contributor Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 932	Yes. My PB is like the slowest hardware on which FCP4 will run unhacked. Actually was. It's built-in video died a few days ago so it is bound to become a web server or something like that :'( __________________ Ignacio Rodríguez in the third world. @micronauta on Twitter. Main hardware: brain, eyes, hands.