Firewire 800 & Vegas at DVinfo.net

Ed Fiebke · December 8th, 2003, 02:46 AM

Thinking about purchasing an external Firewire 800 case for a fast (7200 rpm, ATA-100) 120 GB (or higher) hard drive. I know that it will require a Firewire 800 PCI card. I'm hoping that it will provide a faster, sustained flow of information to use with Vegas 4.0 (and other audio editing software that I use). First off, anyone using the Firewire 800 (800mbs/sec)?? If so, any significant performance issues using such a device with the Vegas program?? Finally, any recommendations for manufacturer??

If you use such a device, do you notice an performance improvement with Vegas (and video editing as a whole) over a regular Firewire 400 type of device??

Thank you ahead of time! :)

Ted

Edward Troxel · December 8th, 2003, 08:14 AM

Haven't tried one yet but HAVE used a standard firewire drive. Would be interested in hearing the results of your testing if you decide to get one.

Ed Fiebke · December 8th, 2003, 10:06 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Edward Troxel : Haven't tried one yet but HAVE used a standard firewire drive. Would be interested in hearing the results of your testing if you decide to get one. -->>>

I have a "regular" firewire drive as well. Sadly, it seems to be failing me. It kicks on and off, on and off, on and off. The external firewire case is made by ADS Technologies (and I think the 120 GB drive is a Western Digital). I want to get any new external firewire case (from another company, at this point) and transfer the information from the current external hard drive to the new one before the entire drive system is completely lost. (As it stands, it's stable for about a few hours at a time, then it ADS Technologies IEEE1394 system goes bonkers.)

In the meanwhile, while looking on the internet for new and different IEEE 1394 hard drive cases, I came across the Firewire 800 type external casings. They handle ATA-100, 7200rpm type of drives with what appears to be stable sustainable data transfers. But before I spend the $$$$, I seek second and third opinions. . . . especially with stability with the Vegas 4.0e program.

In the meanwhile, I'm hoping that my ***CURRENT*** ADS Technologies external IEEE 1394a device doesn't fail me completely. . . :(

Sigh. . . .

Ted

Joe Sacher · December 8th, 2003, 10:28 AM

I've been seeing the same thing from my Dual Firewire/USB2 box from ADS. It happens in both USB and Firewire modes. You get a click as the heads on the drive are seated and you can no longer get data from it. Then you have to power down the drive, unplug it, power on, and plug it back in. Really annoying.

Edward Troxel · December 8th, 2003, 10:38 AM

Well... I definitely wouldn't anticipate and PROBLEMS with Vegas. I'd just like to know if the access is faster. I could tell an immediate difference on a 3 camera edit between the internal 5400rpm and the firewire 7200rpm drives.

Ed Fiebke · December 8th, 2003, 11:06 AM

I don't anticipate any problems with the Vegas program either if I get a Firewire 800 type of external drive system. I'm just not sure if my older Dell Precision 420 Workstation can fully utilized this type of drive to its fullest potential.

For now, I think I'll get a regular Firewire 400 external drive. . . from a different company. ;)

Thanks the input, everyone.

Happy Holidays :)

Ted

Glenn Chan · December 8th, 2003, 01:19 PM

Internal drives are faster and cheaper, but that may not be practical in this case.

On Macs FW800 drives are virtually the same speed as internal drives and a lot faster than FW400 drives. Some people encounter problems using FW400 drives.

On PCs internal drives are a lot faster than FW400 drives. Not sure how fast FW800 drives are.

Joe Carney · December 8th, 2003, 02:32 PM

where can one get a fw800 pci card for PCs?

Ed Fiebke · December 8th, 2003, 05:05 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Joe Carney : where can one get a fw800 pci card for PCs? -->>>

I'm purchasing mine from the following company:

http://www.firewire-1394.com

This is the particular brand & typed of external firewire HD setup I'm purchasing:

http://www.firewire-1394.com/smart-hard-drives.htm

Here's some info in the FW800 pci cards & drives:

http://www.firewire-1394.com/firewire-800-1394b-products.htm

Hope this is helpful! :)

In the meanwhile, I purchased a Maxtor USB 2.0 based external 120 GB hard disk drive (7200rpm, ata100). (Sadly, the local Staples store didn't have any Firewire-based external HD setups.) I'm backing up my failing IEEE1394 drive as we speak because I just don't trust it to last much longer. So far, so good!

What's sad is that up until these past few days. I have've not any problems with the ADS Technologies IEEE 1394a drive. But it's getting worse and worse. . . YIKES! I'm hoping that I can still salvage the hard drive within the casing. If not, at least it's backed-up. Hopefully I'll be able to switch the drive numbers around without much hassle.

97.5% of the time, things run smoothly. I can record & edit audio and video projects for hours and hours. It's that 2.5% of the time that when things go bad, they go really freakin' bad.

In regards to using the Vegas program with my current set-up: Near flawless! Except for this nerve-wracking 2.5% of the time!

Ted

P. S. One thing I've learned is that one can not have enough HD drives doing video editing! And. . . back-up, back-up, backup!Yikes!

David Mintzer · December 8th, 2003, 08:19 PM

Same thing here---the ADS cases are very unreliable--but dont lose faith--in both cases where my cases failed, the drives were intact and readiable. ADS should get there act together.

Glenn Chan · December 9th, 2003, 02:01 PM

Quote:

In the meanwhile, I purchased a Maxtor USB 2.0 based external 120 GB hard disk drive (7200rpm, ata100). (Sadly, the local Staples store didn't have any Firewire-based external HD setups.) I'm backing up my failing IEEE1394 drive as we speak because I just don't trust it to last much longer. So far, so good!

Do USB2 drives work for video editing? I haven't heard of anyone using them successfully.

At least Staples has a refund policy...?

Jeff Donald · December 9th, 2003, 02:13 PM

USB 2 drives have problems with sustained read (playback) and write (capture). They are fine for average computing, but the strains of editing can cause dropped frames on capture and stutter on playback.

Helen Bach · December 9th, 2003, 10:11 PM

I've switched to FW800 external drives - all LaCie - after trying one. They are noticeably faster than FW400. The first card I bought was from www.firewiredirect.com, and the second was a LaCie. Both went into Dell PCs with no problems. I also use FW800 for networking the PCs together.

I capture into Vegas using a 4-9 pin connector between a DSR-11 and a FW800 card. No problems.

Best,
Helen

Rob Lohman · December 10th, 2003, 06:14 PM

I hope the busses in your system can cope with the data flow.
I'm not sure what the gain is here if you are not going to use
a striped RAID set. I mean, to my knowledge no IDE harddisk
can get you 80 MB/s or more then 40 MB/s (max of firewire 400)
as well.

Then again I do have the feeling that most current firewire
controllers aren't running at 400 mbps or that efficient. But
that is just a "feeling" at the moment.

Bogdan Vaglarov · December 10th, 2003, 07:59 PM

Current IDE hard drives run at max (beginning area of the disk) 65 MB/s (apr.)

IEEE1394a interface limits drive's speed to just under 40mB/s.

If you look a graph of such drive it will be flat 35MB/s in 2/3 of the disk space then fall off with normal curve to about 25 as it would if it was interanl IDE drive.

I guess the 1394b (800MBps) standard will give headroom for this limitation and the drive should be operated at full potential.

December 8th, 2003, 02:46 AM	#1
Ed Fiebke Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: New Lebanon, New York Posts: 240	Firewire 800 & Vegas Thinking about purchasing an external Firewire 800 case for a fast (7200 rpm, ATA-100) 120 GB (or higher) hard drive. I know that it will require a Firewire 800 PCI card. I'm hoping that it will provide a faster, sustained flow of information to use with Vegas 4.0 (and other audio editing software that I use). First off, anyone using the Firewire 800 (800mbs/sec)?? If so, any significant performance issues using such a device with the Vegas program?? Finally, any recommendations for manufacturer?? If you use such a device, do you notice an performance improvement with Vegas (and video editing as a whole) over a regular Firewire 400 type of device?? Thank you ahead of time! :) Ted __________________ iMac Pro (3.2 GHz 8-Core Intel Xeon W ): OS X 10.15.6; 64 GBs RAM; Radeon Pro Vega 64X 16 GB graphics; 2 TB internal SSD; 3 external SSDs; MOTU 828ES

December 8th, 2003, 10:06 AM	#3
Ed Fiebke Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: New Lebanon, New York Posts: 240	<<<-- Originally posted by Edward Troxel : Haven't tried one yet but HAVE used a standard firewire drive. Would be interested in hearing the results of your testing if you decide to get one. -->>> I have a "regular" firewire drive as well. Sadly, it seems to be failing me. It kicks on and off, on and off, on and off. The external firewire case is made by ADS Technologies (and I think the 120 GB drive is a Western Digital). I want to get any new external firewire case (from another company, at this point) and transfer the information from the current external hard drive to the new one before the entire drive system is completely lost. (As it stands, it's stable for about a few hours at a time, then it ADS Technologies IEEE1394 system goes bonkers.) In the meanwhile, while looking on the internet for new and different IEEE 1394 hard drive cases, I came across the Firewire 800 type external casings. They handle ATA-100, 7200rpm type of drives with what appears to be stable sustainable data transfers. But before I spend the $$$$, I seek second and third opinions. . . . especially with stability with the Vegas 4.0e program. In the meanwhile, I'm hoping that my *CURRENT* ADS Technologies external IEEE 1394a device doesn't fail me completely. . . :( Sigh. . . . Ted __________________ iMac Pro (3.2 GHz 8-Core Intel Xeon W ): OS X 10.15.6; 64 GBs RAM; Radeon Pro Vega 64X 16 GB graphics; 2 TB internal SSD; 3 external SSDs; MOTU 828ES

December 8th, 2003, 11:06 AM	#6
Ed Fiebke Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: New Lebanon, New York Posts: 240	I don't anticipate problems either I don't anticipate any problems with the Vegas program either if I get a Firewire 800 type of external drive system. I'm just not sure if my older Dell Precision 420 Workstation can fully utilized this type of drive to its fullest potential. For now, I think I'll get a regular Firewire 400 external drive. . . from a different company. ;) Thanks the input, everyone. Happy Holidays :) Ted __________________ iMac Pro (3.2 GHz 8-Core Intel Xeon W ): OS X 10.15.6; 64 GBs RAM; Radeon Pro Vega 64X 16 GB graphics; 2 TB internal SSD; 3 external SSDs; MOTU 828ES

December 8th, 2003, 05:05 PM	#9
Ed Fiebke Major Player Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: New Lebanon, New York Posts: 240	<<<-- Originally posted by Joe Carney : where can one get a fw800 pci card for PCs? -->>> I'm purchasing mine from the following company: http://www.firewire-1394.com This is the particular brand & typed of external firewire HD setup I'm purchasing: http://www.firewire-1394.com/smart-hard-drives.htm Here's some info in the FW800 pci cards & drives: http://www.firewire-1394.com/firewire-800-1394b-products.htm Hope this is helpful! :) In the meanwhile, I purchased a Maxtor USB 2.0 based external 120 GB hard disk drive (7200rpm, ata100). (Sadly, the local Staples store didn't have any Firewire-based external HD setups.) I'm backing up my failing IEEE1394 drive as we speak because I just don't trust it to last much longer. So far, so good! What's sad is that up until these past few days. I have've not any problems with the ADS Technologies IEEE 1394a drive. But it's getting worse and worse. . . YIKES! I'm hoping that I can still salvage the hard drive within the casing. If not, at least it's backed-up. Hopefully I'll be able to switch the drive numbers around without much hassle. 97.5% of the time, things run smoothly. I can record & edit audio and video projects for hours and hours. It's that 2.5% of the time that when things go bad, they go really freakin' bad. In regards to using the Vegas program with my current set-up: Near flawless! Except for this nerve-wracking 2.5% of the time! Ted P. S. One thing I've learned is that one can not have enough HD drives doing video editing! And. . . back-up, back-up, backup!Yikes! __________________ iMac Pro (3.2 GHz 8-Core Intel Xeon W ): OS X 10.15.6; 64 GBs RAM; Radeon Pro Vega 64X 16 GB graphics; 2 TB internal SSD; 3 external SSDs; MOTU 828ES

December 9th, 2003, 02:13 PM	#12
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	USB 2 drives have problems with sustained read (playback) and write (capture). They are fine for average computing, but the strains of editing can cause dropped frames on capture and stutter on playback. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

December 8th, 2003, 08:14 AM	#2
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Haven't tried one yet but HAVE used a standard firewire drive. Would be interested in hearing the results of your testing if you decide to get one.

December 8th, 2003, 10:28 AM	#4
Joe Sacher Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 177	I've been seeing the same thing from my Dual Firewire/USB2 box from ADS. It happens in both USB and Firewire modes. You get a click as the heads on the drive are seated and you can no longer get data from it. Then you have to power down the drive, unplug it, power on, and plug it back in. Really annoying.

December 8th, 2003, 10:38 AM	#5
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Well... I definitely wouldn't anticipate and PROBLEMS with Vegas. I'd just like to know if the access is faster. I could tell an immediate difference on a 3 camera edit between the internal 5400rpm and the firewire 7200rpm drives.

December 8th, 2003, 01:19 PM	#7
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	Internal drives are faster and cheaper, but that may not be practical in this case. On Macs FW800 drives are virtually the same speed as internal drives and a lot faster than FW400 drives. Some people encounter problems using FW400 drives. On PCs internal drives are a lot faster than FW400 drives. Not sure how fast FW800 drives are.

December 8th, 2003, 02:32 PM	#8
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	where can one get a fw800 pci card for PCs?

December 8th, 2003, 08:19 PM	#10
David Mintzer Rextilleon Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pleasantville, NY Posts: 520	Same thing here---the ADS cases are very unreliable--but dont lose faith--in both cases where my cases failed, the drives were intact and readiable. ADS should get there act together.

December 9th, 2003, 10:11 PM	#13
Helen Bach Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 120	I've switched to FW800 external drives - all LaCie - after trying one. They are noticeably faster than FW400. The first card I bought was from www.firewiredirect.com, and the second was a LaCie. Both went into Dell PCs with no problems. I also use FW800 for networking the PCs together. I capture into Vegas using a 4-9 pin connector between a DSR-11 and a FW800 card. No problems. Best, Helen

December 10th, 2003, 06:14 PM	#14
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	I hope the busses in your system can cope with the data flow. I'm not sure what the gain is here if you are not going to use a striped RAID set. I mean, to my knowledge no IDE harddisk can get you 80 MB/s or more then 40 MB/s (max of firewire 400) as well. Then again I do have the feeling that most current firewire controllers aren't running at 400 mbps or that efficient. But that is just a "feeling" at the moment. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

December 10th, 2003, 07:59 PM	#15
Bogdan Vaglarov Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Yokohama, Japan Posts: 366	Current IDE hard drives run at max (beginning area of the disk) 65 MB/s (apr.) IEEE1394a interface limits drive's speed to just under 40mB/s. If you look a graph of such drive it will be flat 35MB/s in 2/3 of the disk space then fall off with normal curve to about 25 as it would if it was interanl IDE drive. I guess the 1394b (800MBps) standard will give headroom for this limitation and the drive should be operated at full potential.