Not everything goes out to TV screen

Graham Bernard · October 6th, 2003, 11:01 AM

I've played with safe areas. I've adjusted Action and Text areas in prefs. I still don't get everything.

I'm at a loss. Do I need to take this into account when I film? I do work for others. They say all my stuff gets onto their final rendered VHS/TV screen. What am I doing wrong?

Grazie

Edward Troxel · October 6th, 2003, 12:21 PM

Grazie, I don't understand the question. WHAT don't you get? You mean you want the entire 720x480 (convert to PAL for your settings) to show on a TV? If so, forget it because every TV is different - what works for yours might not work for mine. You can show it on 3 different TVs and get 3 different areas.

For titles, keep them inside the title safe area and all will be fine.

For action, keep it inside the action safe area and all will be fine.

Yes, some other means of showing the video will show the ENTIRE frame.

Graham Bernard · October 6th, 2003, 01:00 PM

Edward, I use my XM2 to film - it's PAL - right? Okay. All of this shows in the Preview Screen in Vegas4 - that is, I can see in the Preview that which I framed while shooting. I have V4 setup as PAL 720 x 576. The Action dotted line then "cuts-off" a proportion of this fine camera work - it's presently setup with 20% Text and 10% Action. The stuff outside of this 10% does not show on the TV EITHER when I finally print to tape and show the content on a vcr OR thru firewire for External monitor - yeah? Sorry if I didn't make this clear enough . . I did try.

Any ideas? I'd like to know that, that which I shoot and frame in my PAL XM2 will show in the final work. Otherwise, in future, I'll have to compensate and re-frame my work to adjust for editing within Vegas. This cannot be correct. If it is I'm sure you will tell me . . . .

Best regards,

Grazie

Edward Troxel · October 6th, 2003, 01:20 PM

That is all perfectly normal. Unfortunately, the size of the "cut off area" varies from TV to TV. So even if you adjusted it to match yours, it will be different for the next person. Just expect to lose that area. In fact, I believe the eyepiece also has some compensation for the safe area as well. I'm not sure on the GL2 (xm2) but I know the XL-1 eyepiece pretty well reflects what I see in the safe area.

Another alternative (at least in SOME instances), use a TV as an external monitor attached to the camera's output. This will show you exactly what will be seen on a typical TV for framing purposes.

Graham Bernard · October 6th, 2003, 01:30 PM

This IS news to me . . . I'm gonna have to film/frame with this in mind. 10% is quite a whopping "slice" taken off all round my superb film work - yeah?

Grazie

Edward Troxel · October 6th, 2003, 01:35 PM

At least you're not alone - it happens to EVERYBODY.

Graham Bernard · October 6th, 2003, 01:48 PM

Then why why why, in all that is MGM, does the footage I give to my Gaffer who then edits on an AVIO does my work fill his screen? Both on his preview and on his final edit?

Edward Troxel · October 6th, 2003, 03:21 PM

Maybe he is using a true monitor that can display all the way to the edges? It certainly isn't a standard TV.

Randall Campbell · October 6th, 2003, 06:41 PM

Graham,

You can use Vegas to "shrink" your video so that in the preview window there are black areas in the outer 10% or so. This will recover some of your shot to fill the TV frame, but if it is shown on a TV with less overscan, then it is possible that black may be seen around the edges.

Some professional monitors also have a underscan switch to allow you to view the entire frame.

Randall

Graham Bernard · October 6th, 2003, 11:40 PM

Understood. I'd really like to have a way that I can frame and see that which I film and that which I can be assured will be seen within V4 Preview and finally in output when I PTT and seen on a TV screen. I understand there is a compromise. I suppose I'm looking for a real world solution that would fit the bill. Presently the surgical removal of the 10% is a tad drastic. However I do now understand why it IS there.

What do you Guys 'n Gals proffer as a "sensible" solution/compromise? Would it be to shrink/stretch the format so that the incoming full XM2 output is within between say the 10% Action Area and the edge of the Preview screen? Or what?

Look, thanks everybody for taking the time out to assist me - really much appreciated.

Grazie

Edward Troxel · October 7th, 2003, 07:56 AM

I guess I still don't fully understand the problem. I tape FOR the safe area. Just pretend the outside 10% doesn't exist. If you happen to encode for some format that DOES show the whole area (i.e. a wmv for computer display), you simply get a little extra around the outside.

Rob Lohman · October 7th, 2003, 11:19 AM

I can understand your first reaction, Graham. It's like, what? Why?

Let me tell you why. The TV is an analog system. It uses all sorts
of extra signals in the stream to KNOW when a line ends and
begins and when it has shown one field and needs to begin
the other etc.

Now since these are just electrical signal you can also SEE these
signals if your TV is not setup properly and if you go too far all
sorts of stuff starts to happen. To make it safe (hence the safe
areas) they used an area that is not to be displayed. It is there
to make sure you see the picture but not anything outside of
that. It is a safe zone.

In the digital world we don't have such signals and we see
everything that is recorded. If you had one of the older capture
cards you could see extra information like teletext being captured
as well with the stream which you wouldn't see on your TV.

As other people have pointed out, your GL2 should SHOW
roughly ONLY the safe area in the viewfinder/LCD and not
the rest.

So when you are framing you should be framing right. Also the
most parts are cut of from the sides and not the top/bottom.

Yes you can zoom out your footage if you want to, but I wouldn't
because you run into problems when people watch it on computers.

It is basically something you will have to live with. To me it has
never posed a problem really.

Graham Bernard · October 7th, 2003, 12:10 PM

Rob, thanks very much for taking the time to respond.

My reaction is HOW to cope with what I want to do. I want to frame and film knowing that that which I film will appear all the way through. But thanks for your understanding.

"Let me tell you why. The TV is an analog system. It uses all sorts
of extra signals in the stream to KNOW when a line ends and
begins and when it has shown one field and needs to begin
the other etc." Yup I knew this . . much of the data a TV needs to function is secreated into these DARK zone/area.

Agree about the digital world.

"As other people have pointed out, your GL2 should SHOW
roughly ONLY the safe area in the viewfinder/LCD and not
the rest." . . . well . . . I'm sure you are correct . . but it does "slice off" 10% all the way round when I get it into Vegas4 - seems heaps to make sure the data streaming and other muck does not collide with my masterpiece.

"So when you are framing you should be framing right." - I've been framing using the edges of the lcd or eyepiece as the guides.

"Also the most parts are cut of from the sides and not the top/bottom. " okay . .

Yes you can zoom out your footage if you want to, but I wouldn't
because you run into problems when people watch it on computers." - Oh no I aint gonna go there, don't worry about that!

"It is basically something you will have to live with. To me it has
never posed a problem really." - Thanks again for your reassurance.

I feel like I want to stick or draw on the LCD a cross hatch area to stay clear of. Maybe I should apply some of that sticky pbacked plastic to the LCD?

Maybe I should organise some screen shots for everybody here so that you and others can see what I've been banging on about. I don't have a place to dump this stuff. Anybody wanna take care of my jpgs or pngs or tifs?

Educated BUT still peeved - Grazie :-(

ps - I am not gonna go with the sticky backed plastic idea . . . . .

Tor Salomonsen · October 7th, 2003, 12:25 PM

You could also be practical about it. If something's worth pointing a camera at, it's worth being put in the middle of the frame.
Like Walther Matteaw said in Front Page: Who's gonna read the second paragraph?

(I feel I didn't spell that name right - but you get my meaning.)

Edward Troxel · October 7th, 2003, 12:36 PM

Grazie, what you see on the XM2 viewfinder should be, roughly, the safe area. What you see on the computer screen should be MORE than what you saw on the viewfinder. Frame for the viewfinder and you should be fine.

October 6th, 2003, 11:01 AM	#1
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	Not everything goes out to TV screen - Why? I've played with safe areas. I've adjusted Action and Text areas in prefs. I still don't get everything. I'm at a loss. Do I need to take this into account when I film? I do work for others. They say all my stuff gets onto their final rendered VHS/TV screen. What am I doing wrong? Grazie

October 7th, 2003, 11:19 AM	#12
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	I can understand your first reaction, Graham. It's like, what? Why? Let me tell you why. The TV is an analog system. It uses all sorts of extra signals in the stream to KNOW when a line ends and begins and when it has shown one field and needs to begin the other etc. Now since these are just electrical signal you can also SEE these signals if your TV is not setup properly and if you go too far all sorts of stuff starts to happen. To make it safe (hence the safe areas) they used an area that is not to be displayed. It is there to make sure you see the picture but not anything outside of that. It is a safe zone. In the digital world we don't have such signals and we see everything that is recorded. If you had one of the older capture cards you could see extra information like teletext being captured as well with the stream which you wouldn't see on your TV. As other people have pointed out, your GL2 should SHOW roughly ONLY the safe area in the viewfinder/LCD and not the rest. So when you are framing you should be framing right. Also the most parts are cut of from the sides and not the top/bottom. Yes you can zoom out your footage if you want to, but I wouldn't because you run into problems when people watch it on computers. It is basically something you will have to live with. To me it has never posed a problem really. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

October 6th, 2003, 12:21 PM	#2
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Grazie, I don't understand the question. WHAT don't you get? You mean you want the entire 720x480 (convert to PAL for your settings) to show on a TV? If so, forget it because every TV is different - what works for yours might not work for mine. You can show it on 3 different TVs and get 3 different areas. For titles, keep them inside the title safe area and all will be fine. For action, keep it inside the action safe area and all will be fine. Yes, some other means of showing the video will show the ENTIRE frame.

October 6th, 2003, 01:00 PM	#3
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	Edward, I use my XM2 to film - it's PAL - right? Okay. All of this shows in the Preview Screen in Vegas4 - that is, I can see in the Preview that which I framed while shooting. I have V4 setup as PAL 720 x 576. The Action dotted line then "cuts-off" a proportion of this fine camera work - it's presently setup with 20% Text and 10% Action. The stuff outside of this 10% does not show on the TV EITHER when I finally print to tape and show the content on a vcr OR thru firewire for External monitor - yeah? Sorry if I didn't make this clear enough . . I did try. Any ideas? I'd like to know that, that which I shoot and frame in my PAL XM2 will show in the final work. Otherwise, in future, I'll have to compensate and re-frame my work to adjust for editing within Vegas. This cannot be correct. If it is I'm sure you will tell me . . . . Best regards, Grazie

October 6th, 2003, 01:20 PM	#4
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	That is all perfectly normal. Unfortunately, the size of the "cut off area" varies from TV to TV. So even if you adjusted it to match yours, it will be different for the next person. Just expect to lose that area. In fact, I believe the eyepiece also has some compensation for the safe area as well. I'm not sure on the GL2 (xm2) but I know the XL-1 eyepiece pretty well reflects what I see in the safe area. Another alternative (at least in SOME instances), use a TV as an external monitor attached to the camera's output. This will show you exactly what will be seen on a typical TV for framing purposes.

October 6th, 2003, 01:30 PM	#5
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	This IS news to me . . . I'm gonna have to film/frame with this in mind. 10% is quite a whopping "slice" taken off all round my superb film work - yeah? Grazie

October 6th, 2003, 01:35 PM	#6
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	At least you're not alone - it happens to EVERYBODY.

October 6th, 2003, 01:48 PM	#7
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	Then why why why, in all that is MGM, does the footage I give to my Gaffer who then edits on an AVIO does my work fill his screen? Both on his preview and on his final edit?

October 6th, 2003, 03:21 PM	#8
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Maybe he is using a true monitor that can display all the way to the edges? It certainly isn't a standard TV.

October 6th, 2003, 06:41 PM	#9
Randall Campbell Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Durham, NC Posts: 69	Graham, You can use Vegas to "shrink" your video so that in the preview window there are black areas in the outer 10% or so. This will recover some of your shot to fill the TV frame, but if it is shown on a TV with less overscan, then it is possible that black may be seen around the edges. Some professional monitors also have a underscan switch to allow you to view the entire frame. Randall

October 6th, 2003, 11:40 PM	#10
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	Understood. I'd really like to have a way that I can frame and see that which I film and that which I can be assured will be seen within V4 Preview and finally in output when I PTT and seen on a TV screen. I understand there is a compromise. I suppose I'm looking for a real world solution that would fit the bill. Presently the surgical removal of the 10% is a tad drastic. However I do now understand why it IS there. What do you Guys 'n Gals proffer as a "sensible" solution/compromise? Would it be to shrink/stretch the format so that the incoming full XM2 output is within between say the 10% Action Area and the edge of the Preview screen? Or what? Look, thanks everybody for taking the time out to assist me - really much appreciated. Grazie

October 7th, 2003, 07:56 AM	#11
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	I guess I still don't fully understand the problem. I tape FOR the safe area. Just pretend the outside 10% doesn't exist. If you happen to encode for some format that DOES show the whole area (i.e. a wmv for computer display), you simply get a little extra around the outside.

October 7th, 2003, 12:10 PM	#13
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	Rob, thanks very much for taking the time to respond. My reaction is HOW to cope with what I want to do. I want to frame and film knowing that that which I film will appear all the way through. But thanks for your understanding. "Let me tell you why. The TV is an analog system. It uses all sorts of extra signals in the stream to KNOW when a line ends and begins and when it has shown one field and needs to begin the other etc." Yup I knew this . . much of the data a TV needs to function is secreated into these DARK zone/area. Agree about the digital world. "As other people have pointed out, your GL2 should SHOW roughly ONLY the safe area in the viewfinder/LCD and not the rest." . . . well . . . I'm sure you are correct . . but it does "slice off" 10% all the way round when I get it into Vegas4 - seems heaps to make sure the data streaming and other muck does not collide with my masterpiece. "So when you are framing you should be framing right." - I've been framing using the edges of the lcd or eyepiece as the guides. "Also the most parts are cut of from the sides and not the top/bottom. " okay . . Yes you can zoom out your footage if you want to, but I wouldn't because you run into problems when people watch it on computers." - Oh no I aint gonna go there, don't worry about that! "It is basically something you will have to live with. To me it has never posed a problem really." - Thanks again for your reassurance. I feel like I want to stick or draw on the LCD a cross hatch area to stay clear of. Maybe I should apply some of that sticky pbacked plastic to the LCD? Maybe I should organise some screen shots for everybody here so that you and others can see what I've been banging on about. I don't have a place to dump this stuff. Anybody wanna take care of my jpgs or pngs or tifs? Educated BUT still peeved - Grazie :-( ps - I am not gonna go with the sticky backed plastic idea . . . . .

October 7th, 2003, 12:25 PM	#14
Tor Salomonsen Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Stavanger, Norway Posts: 265	You could also be practical about it. If something's worth pointing a camera at, it's worth being put in the middle of the frame. Like Walther Matteaw said in Front Page: Who's gonna read the second paragraph? (I feel I didn't spell that name right - but you get my meaning.)

October 7th, 2003, 12:36 PM	#15
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Grazie, what you see on the XM2 viewfinder should be, roughly, the safe area. What you see on the computer screen should be MORE than what you saw on the viewfinder. Frame for the viewfinder and you should be fine.