Not everything goes out to TV screen - Why?

Graham Bernard · October 7th, 2003, 01:12 PM

Okay . .

Tor, Rule of thirds and placing the subject to one side in the frame.

Ed, what I see on the preview of V4 is what I shot, or at least that which I'm happy with. The safe areas then cuts 10% off that. I'm not talking about a small correction or making the picture fit into any TV screen because of data streams at the extreme edges

10% is massive. This in my mind is totally unacceptable.

For example I shot a piece with a woman putting up a banner. She is on the extreme left. Nicely balancing the rest of the shot . . the banner streams out to her right. What do I get on the Preview screen? I get what I shot. BUT, but, but, the Safe Areas in Vegas then cut her completely out of the editable areas. You can just about make out her right arm and half of her right leg. Ed, if what you say is correct - what I frame is what Veags will deal with, this is presently not my experience. Believe Ed I do, "Frame for the viewfinder" and I expect the result of, " . . and you should be fine."

I'd dearly LOVE to up load what I'm banging on about. Apart from being frustrating in terms of managing this "feature", trying to get this communicated is proving a tad crazy-making!

. . okay . . who is gonna be the foster parents of these pics? As they say seeing is believing.

My apologies if I'm sounding a touch . . . . hysterical, . . . . but I really can't think of any other way of getting across this situtation.

My friends - thank you,

Grazie

Rob Lohman · October 7th, 2003, 01:18 PM

You keep talking about "cutting" off. Vegas does/should not cut
anything off. Those markers are there as GUIDELINES. To show
you how it will probably look.

Let's do the following. The scene you are describing in the post
above, please EXPORT an UNALTERED jpeg frame of it (make sure
you set the preview window to full best before doing this in
Vegas!!) and put this up on a site if you can or otherwise e-mail
it to me ASAP and I'll put it up for you and us to see.

Secondly, hook up your camera to your TV and playback that
scene and pause at roughly the same frame you have in Vegas.
Now how do those GUIDELINES from Vegas match with your TV
**AND** what you see in your viewfinder/LCD on your camera?
How close or not close at all is this?

Please do put up a frame or e-mail it to me at rob@ladyxfilms.com
so I can take a look in Vegas myself!

Graham Bernard · October 7th, 2003, 01:46 PM

Rob - Brilliant! PNgs any good?

I got on the case prior to you offering this lifeline.

'You keep talking about "cutting" off. ' . . okay, apologies my way of looking at the world.

. . and yes I do understand these are guidelines, and it is these Action area guidlines that eventually prepare my output to PTT. When I preview via firewire to analogue TV the guidelines show quite corredctly what is being "removed". This is then the format that gets PTTed via my master miniDV to VHS tape. It is on this VHS tape then onto the TV screen that the image is cropped. It is cropped by the amount of the guidelines. I want to get the V4 guidleines to prepare more of what I see on the Preview screen. Digital to Digital isn't the problem, it's when it goes out to analogue - yeah? I would just like that extra little piece . . yer know, peace of mind . . .

Grazie

Glenn Chan · October 7th, 2003, 01:48 PM

Some cameras show the entire DV image and some don't. I would run a 10% overlay through the camera to see where the viewfinder/LCD stands on this, or just hook it up to a TV to compare what is in the overscan area.

The overscan thing is a nasty surprise.

Rob Lohman · October 7th, 2003, 02:05 PM

Graham, are you saying your picture is REDUCED in size when
outputted to VHS tape and then playing back?

I saw your PNG's and all looks fine. The area that should dissappear
(I like to use that word instead of cut off) is the one outside the
outer line (NOT the INNER line!). The inner line is the safe area
for titles.

When you say more is cut off, can you draw a box on the screens
you send me where that "cut off"/dissapear thing happens?

Graham Bernard · October 7th, 2003, 02:20 PM

"Graham, are you saying your picture is REDUCED in size when
outputted to VHS tape and then playing back?" No . . . I'm saying it fills further, if you like, it gets bigger -ie more is removed. The guidelines appear, in my terms, to pull inwards and remove that which beyond the second outer line. Fromhere to the Preview edge, goes. So in my mind the picture onto analogue is filling in more . . . I don't get black bars around the image - I get less of the image by it being bigger . . I don't know how else to explain this . . .

" . . . The area that should dissappear is the one outside the outer line" . Yes exactly. It's the area from the outside of the outer line that goes. What i frame in the XM2 is that which you've now seen completely within the Preview window - ie that which I frame while fiuliming is that which I see in the WHOLE Preview window - no not the inner line - this is for titles, as you say - very useful too!

You say that this is the area that "should dissappear" - what's the should? Are you saying that's how things are and live with it?

"When you say more is cut off, can you draw a box on the screens
you send me where that "cut off"/dissapear thing happens?" You can see it, it is this outer line dashed-box. Now can I increase this Safe Action area to get closer to the framing on my XM2?

. . grazie

Rob Lohman · October 7th, 2003, 02:28 PM

No you can't since it is a GUIDELINE. Changing those lines won't
alter a thing. It is only for your perception of things. When I
was saying REDUCED in size I meant zooming in (basically),
so that's the same.

I don't think I can help you futher. I'm only following half of what
you are saying. All I can say is, yes, the parts outside the outer
lines normally aren't visible on a TV. But that SAME area should
also NOT be visible on your GL2.

Perhaps someone else can explain it more clearly or help you
further. Sorry.

Graham Bernard · October 7th, 2003, 02:49 PM

"But that SAME area should also NOT be visible on your GL2." But it is! It is there when I filmed . . it is there when I capture to my HD and it is there, of course in Preview. It is the area from the outer line to the inner edge of the Preview screen window. Now, if the area from the outside box to the inner edge of the preview screen was Black, I'd understand, but it isn't and you've seen it. It is filled with what I filmed.

You have understood me AND you've given me a clue. I should not be able to see anything from that outer edge - well I and you can.

I've always set my project prefs to go with PAL 720x576. Should there/is there another outer box setting to be used to squash this 720x576 into the outer box area? This would give me a black box around the preview and squeeze the 720x 576 into this outer box?

Grazie

Rob Lohman · October 7th, 2003, 02:56 PM

Let's get one thing straight: you CAN see this on your computer.
That's perfectly normal and the way it works. So YES, you WILL
see it when capturing, viewing or editing on your PC. You SHOULD
NOT see this on your GL2 or on your TV though.

If you are doing PAL your project should be set at PAL and
nothing else. Again, it is normal to see it on your PC. It isn't
"normal" to see it on your GL2 and TV.

You probably will see it on a projector (unless it chooses to
simply not display it) and when watching a DVD on your PC....

Paul Doss · October 9th, 2003, 10:24 PM

If you are only concerned with your video being seen on TV's you might just try the Track Motion button on the track header and see what you think. I wouldn't try to recover the whole 10% but something less.

Graham Bernard · October 9th, 2003, 11:22 PM

Paul, thank you.

Are you saying to use track motion to "reduce" the overall size of the picture format? Doing this in Track Motion's frame reduction? Yeah, I thought it might come down to this.

Thanks you,

Grazie

Jesper Hallen · October 10th, 2003, 07:02 AM

I miss the sound when I wanna preview it on tv frm Vegas.. like in Premiere for example you can print it on tape directly from the timeline.

Edward Troxel · October 10th, 2003, 07:50 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Jesper Hallen : I miss the sound when I wanna preview it on tv frm Vegas.. like in Premiere for example you can print it on tape directly from the timeline. -->>>

That's what "Print Video to DV Tape" is for! Prints directly from the timeline to a tape with sound.

Unless it was cut's only, without rendering the required areas you wouldn't be happy anyway.

Jesper Hallen · October 10th, 2003, 08:10 AM

I know but my "print to dv tape" is problematic... I know without rendering its no good, but with rendering it is

Paul Doss · October 10th, 2003, 11:58 AM

Graham,

Yes use the track motion and you will get more, of what you thought you were going to get, on a TV. Like they said you still may want to check that viewfinder. It sounds like that is the probem not Vegas.

October 7th, 2003, 01:18 PM	#17
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	You keep talking about "cutting" off. Vegas does/should not cut anything off. Those markers are there as GUIDELINES. To show you how it will probably look. Let's do the following. The scene you are describing in the post above, please EXPORT an UNALTERED jpeg frame of it (make sure you set the preview window to full best before doing this in Vegas!!) and put this up on a site if you can or otherwise e-mail it to me ASAP and I'll put it up for you and us to see. Secondly, hook up your camera to your TV and playback that scene and pause at roughly the same frame you have in Vegas. Now how do those GUIDELINES from Vegas match with your TV AND what you see in your viewfinder/LCD on your camera? How close or not close at all is this? Please do put up a frame or e-mail it to me at rob@ladyxfilms.com so I can take a look in Vegas myself! __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

October 7th, 2003, 02:05 PM	#20
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Graham, are you saying your picture is REDUCED in size when outputted to VHS tape and then playing back? I saw your PNG's and all looks fine. The area that should dissappear (I like to use that word instead of cut off) is the one outside the outer line (NOT the INNER line!). The inner line is the safe area for titles. When you say more is cut off, can you draw a box on the screens you send me where that "cut off"/dissapear thing happens? __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

October 7th, 2003, 02:28 PM	#22
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	No you can't since it is a GUIDELINE. Changing those lines won't alter a thing. It is only for your perception of things. When I was saying REDUCED in size I meant zooming in (basically), so that's the same. I don't think I can help you futher. I'm only following half of what you are saying. All I can say is, yes, the parts outside the outer lines normally aren't visible on a TV. But that SAME area should also NOT be visible on your GL2. Perhaps someone else can explain it more clearly or help you further. Sorry. __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

October 7th, 2003, 02:56 PM	#24
Rob Lohman RED Code Chef Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Holland Posts: 12,514	Let's get one thing straight: you CAN see this on your computer. That's perfectly normal and the way it works. So YES, you WILL see it when capturing, viewing or editing on your PC. You SHOULD NOT see this on your GL2 or on your TV though. If you are doing PAL your project should be set at PAL and nothing else. Again, it is normal to see it on your PC. It isn't "normal" to see it on your GL2 and TV. You probably will see it on a projector (unless it chooses to simply not display it) and when watching a DVD on your PC.... __________________ Rob Lohman, visuar@iname.com DV Info Wrangler & RED Code Chef Join the DV Challenge \| Lady X Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Buy from the best: DVinfo.net sponsors

October 10th, 2003, 07:02 AM	#27
Jesper Hallen Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Gothenburg, EU Posts: 35	I miss the sound when I wanna preview it on tv frm Vegas.. like in Premiere for example you can print it on tape directly from the timeline. __________________ - jeha!

October 7th, 2003, 01:12 PM	#16
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	Okay . . Tor, Rule of thirds and placing the subject to one side in the frame. Ed, what I see on the preview of V4 is what I shot, or at least that which I'm happy with. The safe areas then cuts 10% off that. I'm not talking about a small correction or making the picture fit into any TV screen because of data streams at the extreme edges 10% is massive. This in my mind is totally unacceptable. For example I shot a piece with a woman putting up a banner. She is on the extreme left. Nicely balancing the rest of the shot . . the banner streams out to her right. What do I get on the Preview screen? I get what I shot. BUT, but, but, the Safe Areas in Vegas then cut her completely out of the editable areas. You can just about make out her right arm and half of her right leg. Ed, if what you say is correct - what I frame is what Veags will deal with, this is presently not my experience. Believe Ed I do, "Frame for the viewfinder" and I expect the result of, " . . and you should be fine." I'd dearly LOVE to up load what I'm banging on about. Apart from being frustrating in terms of managing this "feature", trying to get this communicated is proving a tad crazy-making! . . okay . . who is gonna be the foster parents of these pics? As they say seeing is believing. My apologies if I'm sounding a touch . . . . hysterical, . . . . but I really can't think of any other way of getting across this situtation. My friends - thank you, Grazie

October 7th, 2003, 01:46 PM	#18
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	Rob - Brilliant! PNgs any good? I got on the case prior to you offering this lifeline. 'You keep talking about "cutting" off. ' . . okay, apologies my way of looking at the world. . . and yes I do understand these are guidelines, and it is these Action area guidlines that eventually prepare my output to PTT. When I preview via firewire to analogue TV the guidelines show quite corredctly what is being "removed". This is then the format that gets PTTed via my master miniDV to VHS tape. It is on this VHS tape then onto the TV screen that the image is cropped. It is cropped by the amount of the guidelines. I want to get the V4 guidleines to prepare more of what I see on the Preview screen. Digital to Digital isn't the problem, it's when it goes out to analogue - yeah? I would just like that extra little piece . . yer know, peace of mind . . . Grazie

October 7th, 2003, 01:48 PM	#19
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	Some cameras show the entire DV image and some don't. I would run a 10% overlay through the camera to see where the viewfinder/LCD stands on this, or just hook it up to a TV to compare what is in the overscan area. The overscan thing is a nasty surprise.

October 7th, 2003, 02:20 PM	#21
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	"Graham, are you saying your picture is REDUCED in size when outputted to VHS tape and then playing back?" No . . . I'm saying it fills further, if you like, it gets bigger -ie more is removed. The guidelines appear, in my terms, to pull inwards and remove that which beyond the second outer line. Fromhere to the Preview edge, goes. So in my mind the picture onto analogue is filling in more . . . I don't get black bars around the image - I get less of the image by it being bigger . . I don't know how else to explain this . . . " . . . The area that should dissappear is the one outside the outer line" . Yes exactly. It's the area from the outside of the outer line that goes. What i frame in the XM2 is that which you've now seen completely within the Preview window - ie that which I frame while fiuliming is that which I see in the WHOLE Preview window - no not the inner line - this is for titles, as you say - very useful too! You say that this is the area that "should dissappear" - what's the should? Are you saying that's how things are and live with it? "When you say more is cut off, can you draw a box on the screens you send me where that "cut off"/dissapear thing happens?" You can see it, it is this outer line dashed-box. Now can I increase this Safe Action area to get closer to the framing on my XM2? . . grazie

October 7th, 2003, 02:49 PM	#23
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	"But that SAME area should also NOT be visible on your GL2." But it is! It is there when I filmed . . it is there when I capture to my HD and it is there, of course in Preview. It is the area from the outer line to the inner edge of the Preview screen window. Now, if the area from the outside box to the inner edge of the preview screen was Black, I'd understand, but it isn't and you've seen it. It is filled with what I filmed. You have understood me AND you've given me a clue. I should not be able to see anything from that outer edge - well I and you can. I've always set my project prefs to go with PAL 720x576. Should there/is there another outer box setting to be used to squash this 720x576 into the outer box area? This would give me a black box around the preview and squeeze the 720x 576 into this outer box? Grazie

October 9th, 2003, 10:24 PM	#25
Paul Doss Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Gulf Shores, Alabama Posts: 57	If you are only concerned with your video being seen on TV's you might just try the Track Motion button on the track header and see what you think. I wouldn't try to recover the whole 10% but something less.

October 9th, 2003, 11:22 PM	#26
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	Paul, thank you. Are you saying to use track motion to "reduce" the overall size of the picture format? Doing this in Track Motion's frame reduction? Yeah, I thought it might come down to this. Thanks you, Grazie

October 10th, 2003, 07:50 AM	#28
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	<<<-- Originally posted by Jesper Hallen : I miss the sound when I wanna preview it on tv frm Vegas.. like in Premiere for example you can print it on tape directly from the timeline. -->>> That's what "Print Video to DV Tape" is for! Prints directly from the timeline to a tape with sound. Unless it was cut's only, without rendering the required areas you wouldn't be happy anyway.

October 10th, 2003, 08:10 AM	#29
Jesper Hallen Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Gothenburg, EU Posts: 35	I know but my "print to dv tape" is problematic... I know without rendering its no good, but with rendering it is __________________ - jeha!

October 10th, 2003, 11:58 AM	#30
Paul Doss Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Gulf Shores, Alabama Posts: 57	Graham, Yes use the track motion and you will get more, of what you thought you were going to get, on a TV. Like they said you still may want to check that viewfinder. It sounds like that is the probem not Vegas.