afew tips- Vegas, Main Concept and dark environments at DVinfo.net

Peter Jefferson · September 25th, 2003, 10:18 AM

heres a couple of tips learned the hard way...

when freezing a frame make sure that the frame itself ISNT the "blended" part of a series of fields. On a OC this is extreely hard to spot, however if you set your preview to best, and enlarge teh screen this may help decipher the frame.
If shooting in Progressive you wont have this issue

In the timeline, you wont notice this flicker much, but on a standalone dvd playing the mavie back, its noticable to a point of distraction.
The other alternatve is to capture the frame as a still image and import it.
This is what i will be doing from now on.. usually i just run the velocity down to zero, but i with the 4d version of Vegas, this doesnt seem to give me the quality of the older versions.

this flicker even occurs even when using the reduce interlace flicker facility as well as the resample function.
for some reason, vegas cant decipher the centre field from the main field (im referring to PAL here but 60i would also experience this im sure)

I was advised NOT to render to mpg in parts then re-render to one large mpg..
I was advised to prerender as DV avi, which is somethign i considererd, however im editing a 4 hour wedding presentation on 2 dvdr's from 12 hours worth of footage, so im maxing out my HDD's as i only have 2 main 120gb HDD's which hold about 8.5 hours worth of footage each, do DV Format in this case is a no show

I never had a problem doing this in the past <size was never an isue>, but watching on a big screen i can only agree that rerencdered mpgs suck the big one... seems stupid to do it but it can save time but in the ed, its time vs quality.

I prefer quality so that old routine of mine is now changed also.
Problem is, there are free applications out there which allwo you to combine files without the need to re-render. If using the SAME bitrate calcualtions, there really is no need to re-render an already rendered file. so not only does it waste time, but it also ruins your footage.
heres hoping an update will be made available which bypasses the multi render of a file with the same atributes....

AC3 ecoding... for some reason it doesnt pick up the centre channel for ac3. now this ONLY occurs when dvd architect needs to re=render the audio.
Also i would only suggest using metadata and surround EX encoding when working with stereo tracks only. leave the dvd 5.1 surround as default.
Ive used other encoders and have been able to setup a Surround/Pro Logic analogue prefered mixdown within the 5.1 ac3 file, but for some reason either architect or Vegas doesnt process this info correctly.
Im still investigating this, as i think its an audio bus config stuffup during render.
basically form the looks (and sounds) of it, there are bus send errors which "bleeds" the audio from centre channel to the front and left mains., leaving the centre mute.
And when selcting mixdown preference, its muting the rears and centre...
Again, i will prolly post on the SoFo forum, but im not happy with this. Ive only recently experienced this with the latest Vegas updates, i havent had issues in the past until now.

Another Architect gripe i have is that when i import an mpg at 3.4gb, it sees it as almost double... for eg, i imported the video at 3.4 gb, then i did the audio, which was 400mb, 3.8gb in total for a 4.4 gb format.. Architect saw this as 16.8gb...
why? Who knows...
Funny thing is it saw the 640kbps AC3 as being SMALLER than the 448kbps ac3, which WAS the smaller one... and saw these individual files as about 5gb each when imported...

On top of that it wouldnt let me select the audio as being from the "original Project" so i had no choice but to rerender the audio, which gave me the audio glitches mentioend above...

ARCHITECT NEEDS ALOT OF WORK!! Damn fine concept in DVD Creation, but the execution sucks the big one... very buggy, very slow but offers the fastest dvd menu creation on teh market

Dark environments-
if u use pixelan new noise, you can create virtual disco lights, virtual spotlights and backlight correction can also be made with bump mapping as well as SW gain increases with the colour corrector.

Edward Troxel · September 25th, 2003, 10:41 AM

Peter,

Nice summary.

When picking still shots, I always move through the timeline looking at an external monitor. This allows me to see whether I'm on an image that's "shaky" or one that's truly still. I can then pick the image I desire. Exporting to Photoshop and de-interlacing would be another options.

As for hard drive space, I always work in sections. I capture enough for 1 or 2 sections, finish a section, render to DV-AVI, and then delete the source. Then I move on to the next section. This way I seldom have to worry about filling the hard drive completely full. After all sections are created and rendered, I create a final project using all of the new DV-AVI files. Just a thought.

Yes, DVDA has had some issues in determining sizes. What version are you on? 1.0c??? (if not, update and see if that helps)

Peter Jefferson · September 25th, 2003, 11:46 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Edward Troxel : Peter,

Nice summary.

When picking still shots, I always move through the timeline looking at an external monitor. This allows me to see whether I'm on an image that's "shaky" or one that's truly still. I can then pick the image I desire. Exporting to Photoshop and de-interlacing would be another options.

As for hard drive space, I always work in sections. I capture enough for 1 or 2 sections, finish a section, render to DV-AVI, and then delete the source. Then I move on to the next section. This way I seldom have to worry about filling the hard drive completely full. After all sections are created and rendered, I create a final project using all of the new DV-AVI files. Just a thought.

Yes, DVDA has had some issues in determining sizes. What version are you on? 1.0c??? (if not, update and see if that helps) -->>>

See, i considered doing the first thing you mentioned, as this is how i used to work prior to AC3as i used to jsut render to one avi, and delete the rest, then import the new avi to take its place, audio and all... but now with ac3, i cant delete the source files as they carry the tracks for the actual ac3 which is panned and synced witht the video edit... , with that, as the audio is sourced from teh original video, i cant delete the source files at all.. does that make sense?

See, i work with alot of audio and i literaly edit according to the sound... most of the time with weddings (what i do) its all sync work...
and i cant export the audio tracks as they carry the panning and bus send keyfreames throughout the project...

I do have the latest DVDA, and it still drives me up the wall.. LOL
you'd think an app liek this could deciper a 400mb file and not mistake it or a 7gb monster..

SoFo have changed their webpage to Sony and there is a post from SoFOs dev's for what people would like in Vegas...

I suggest everyone here go in and have their say... I did...
www.sonicfoundry.com forums

Edward Troxel · September 25th, 2003, 12:17 PM

I'm still not sure why you couldn't work that way. Yes, it would be slightly more hassle but you can have the audio as a file separate from the video, render the video to a new file, delete the original AVI and replace it with the newly rendered video. If you have your audio separate in the beginning, you could then leave the original audio alone.

Peter Jefferson · September 26th, 2003, 08:44 AM

the probelm still lay that the original projects audio is sourced from teh original DVAvi...

i think i get where your coming from and i think i will create the 5.1 environment AFTER the main edit is complete, i can export as wave if needed then set the track properties later.. usualy i like doing things as i go along, but i guess sometimes work routines need t change..

Edward Troxel · September 26th, 2003, 09:51 AM

Yes, that is what I was getting at - just render the audio to a SEPARATE WAV file so it is totally independent of the video. Or, as you said, the mix could be done last.

Peter Jefferson · September 26th, 2003, 10:14 AM

hey, i just discovered another bug...

i dunno if this is camera related but id say it is...

now this slo mo jerkiness i was talking about ONLY occurs on the footage which is slo mo'd taken from a small DS88 cam. The same and even slower clips from the mx500's DONT stutter...

Ive just been experimenting, and i think as the MX's were set to manual their shutters were set to 1/50 (indoors) while the DS88 was set at the same value in auto mode, now the funny thing is, the "gap" between fields seems wider on the DS than the mx...

it DOES sem logical, however i dont understand why it woudl only affect that cam, and that cam is also used as a backup deck for the DVX as well as the VCR deck when capturing...

strange...i could be wrong but the issues of juttery slow mos only occurs form footage taken with the smaller older cam...

i wonder....

Peter Jefferson · September 26th, 2003, 10:17 AM

forgot to mention, does anyone here use Spicemaster???

if u do, there are some tricks to get some incredible disco ball and fairy lights happening... this is great for dark venues, as even though your footage is dark, thee effects can bring out the ambience within the darkness.

I jsut finished a wedding which the venue used those horrible purple neoen lights and 3 chasers the chasers were fine, but the neon turned everything blue.
so i washed the footage with white fairy lights...

Rich MacDonald · September 26th, 2003, 11:20 AM

>there are free applications out there which allwo you to combine files without the need to re-render.

Careful. If you're talking about TMPGENC, I've been unable to join mpg files without causing audio/video sync problems. I don't know if others have had the same experience.

Sean R Allen · September 26th, 2003, 02:55 PM

"If you're talking about TMPGENC"

He's probably talking about VirtualDub.

Peter, interesting all the problems you mentioned with achitect, I've never experienced any of them (with version 1.0c). Always the right file sizes, never wants to re-encode, but then again I always stick to stereo AC-3 so there may be issues there I have yet to run into.

The only bug (minor) I've run into is when rendering an AC3 file when architect is open with the file referenced somewhere within it, Vegas will act like it rendered it succesfully (in record time) but in reality it didn't because it was locked.

Are you sure you're using 1.0c?

Steven-Marc Couchouron · September 26th, 2003, 03:29 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Rich MacDonald : Careful. If you're talking about TMPGENC, I've been unable to join mpg files without causing audio/video sync problems. I don't know if others have had the same experience. -->>>

I always join my mpg segments with TMPGEnc and have never had a problem. It is very practical.
However, I only join the video. The audio I add later as one single file. Maybe this is why you have had sync problems...

Rich MacDonald · September 26th, 2003, 03:44 PM

>I always join my mpg segments with TMPGEnc and have never had a problem. It is very practical.
However, I only join the video. The audio I add later as one single file. Maybe this is why you have had sync problems...

Maybe. I joined clips that contained both video and audio.

However your approach worries me as well. Since the video join can only be at certain frame types, its possible that the joined video has a different length than the original unsplit video. So if you had generated your audio from the original unsplit video, you could get out-of-synch that way as well.

And its a random effect, so it may or may not show up on tests.

All I know is that I had a 60min clip in Vegas that I rendered in 5 segments (audio and video combined, standard NTSC template), then joined in TMPGENC. The last 15 min of the video was like watching a kung fu movie :-) I haven't performed any further experiments since that debacle. I'm glad YMV.

Peter Jefferson · September 29th, 2003, 08:34 AM

yeah mate, system shows 1c build 203

wierd...

now one thing i DID do was change teh default disc size form 4.7 to 4.4gb which is teh real measurement when looking at storage...

im gonna look into it, but ac3 is ac3 and it shouldnt make a difference..

i never had this issue with the earlier versions of DVDA...

Peter Jefferson · September 29th, 2003, 08:43 AM

still does it, jsut messed around with it, and imported an ac3 file of 400mb and it shows up as 3.8gb....

Sean R Allen · September 29th, 2003, 08:59 AM

Peter, the only thing I can think of to do would be to install the 1.0c patch again, maybe a setting somewhere got hosed. Otherwise I'm at a loss at to what may be happening.

September 25th, 2003, 10:18 AM	#1
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	afew tips- Vegas, Main Concept and dark environments heres a couple of tips learned the hard way... when freezing a frame make sure that the frame itself ISNT the "blended" part of a series of fields. On a OC this is extreely hard to spot, however if you set your preview to best, and enlarge teh screen this may help decipher the frame. If shooting in Progressive you wont have this issue In the timeline, you wont notice this flicker much, but on a standalone dvd playing the mavie back, its noticable to a point of distraction. The other alternatve is to capture the frame as a still image and import it. This is what i will be doing from now on.. usually i just run the velocity down to zero, but i with the 4d version of Vegas, this doesnt seem to give me the quality of the older versions. this flicker even occurs even when using the reduce interlace flicker facility as well as the resample function. for some reason, vegas cant decipher the centre field from the main field (im referring to PAL here but 60i would also experience this im sure) I was advised NOT to render to mpg in parts then re-render to one large mpg.. I was advised to prerender as DV avi, which is somethign i considererd, however im editing a 4 hour wedding presentation on 2 dvdr's from 12 hours worth of footage, so im maxing out my HDD's as i only have 2 main 120gb HDD's which hold about 8.5 hours worth of footage each, do DV Format in this case is a no show I never had a problem doing this in the past <size was never an isue>, but watching on a big screen i can only agree that rerencdered mpgs suck the big one... seems stupid to do it but it can save time but in the ed, its time vs quality. I prefer quality so that old routine of mine is now changed also. Problem is, there are free applications out there which allwo you to combine files without the need to re-render. If using the SAME bitrate calcualtions, there really is no need to re-render an already rendered file. so not only does it waste time, but it also ruins your footage. heres hoping an update will be made available which bypasses the multi render of a file with the same atributes.... AC3 ecoding... for some reason it doesnt pick up the centre channel for ac3. now this ONLY occurs when dvd architect needs to re=render the audio. Also i would only suggest using metadata and surround EX encoding when working with stereo tracks only. leave the dvd 5.1 surround as default. Ive used other encoders and have been able to setup a Surround/Pro Logic analogue prefered mixdown within the 5.1 ac3 file, but for some reason either architect or Vegas doesnt process this info correctly. Im still investigating this, as i think its an audio bus config stuffup during render. basically form the looks (and sounds) of it, there are bus send errors which "bleeds" the audio from centre channel to the front and left mains., leaving the centre mute. And when selcting mixdown preference, its muting the rears and centre... Again, i will prolly post on the SoFo forum, but im not happy with this. Ive only recently experienced this with the latest Vegas updates, i havent had issues in the past until now. Another Architect gripe i have is that when i import an mpg at 3.4gb, it sees it as almost double... for eg, i imported the video at 3.4 gb, then i did the audio, which was 400mb, 3.8gb in total for a 4.4 gb format.. Architect saw this as 16.8gb... why? Who knows... Funny thing is it saw the 640kbps AC3 as being SMALLER than the 448kbps ac3, which WAS the smaller one... and saw these individual files as about 5gb each when imported... On top of that it wouldnt let me select the audio as being from the "original Project" so i had no choice but to rerender the audio, which gave me the audio glitches mentioend above... ARCHITECT NEEDS ALOT OF WORK!! Damn fine concept in DVD Creation, but the execution sucks the big one... very buggy, very slow but offers the fastest dvd menu creation on teh market Dark environments- if u use pixelan new noise, you can create virtual disco lights, virtual spotlights and backlight correction can also be made with bump mapping as well as SW gain increases with the colour corrector.

September 26th, 2003, 03:29 PM	#11
Steven-Marc Couchouron Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Paris, France Posts: 110 Images: 5	<<<-- Originally posted by Rich MacDonald : Careful. If you're talking about TMPGENC, I've been unable to join mpg files without causing audio/video sync problems. I don't know if others have had the same experience. -->>> I always join my mpg segments with TMPGEnc and have never had a problem. It is very practical. However, I only join the video. The audio I add later as one single file. Maybe this is why you have had sync problems... __________________ SMCproductions.com

September 25th, 2003, 10:41 AM	#2
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Peter, Nice summary. When picking still shots, I always move through the timeline looking at an external monitor. This allows me to see whether I'm on an image that's "shaky" or one that's truly still. I can then pick the image I desire. Exporting to Photoshop and de-interlacing would be another options. As for hard drive space, I always work in sections. I capture enough for 1 or 2 sections, finish a section, render to DV-AVI, and then delete the source. Then I move on to the next section. This way I seldom have to worry about filling the hard drive completely full. After all sections are created and rendered, I create a final project using all of the new DV-AVI files. Just a thought. Yes, DVDA has had some issues in determining sizes. What version are you on? 1.0c??? (if not, update and see if that helps)

September 25th, 2003, 11:46 AM	#3
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	<<<-- Originally posted by Edward Troxel : Peter, Nice summary. When picking still shots, I always move through the timeline looking at an external monitor. This allows me to see whether I'm on an image that's "shaky" or one that's truly still. I can then pick the image I desire. Exporting to Photoshop and de-interlacing would be another options. As for hard drive space, I always work in sections. I capture enough for 1 or 2 sections, finish a section, render to DV-AVI, and then delete the source. Then I move on to the next section. This way I seldom have to worry about filling the hard drive completely full. After all sections are created and rendered, I create a final project using all of the new DV-AVI files. Just a thought. Yes, DVDA has had some issues in determining sizes. What version are you on? 1.0c??? (if not, update and see if that helps) -->>> See, i considered doing the first thing you mentioned, as this is how i used to work prior to AC3as i used to jsut render to one avi, and delete the rest, then import the new avi to take its place, audio and all... but now with ac3, i cant delete the source files as they carry the tracks for the actual ac3 which is panned and synced witht the video edit... , with that, as the audio is sourced from teh original video, i cant delete the source files at all.. does that make sense? See, i work with alot of audio and i literaly edit according to the sound... most of the time with weddings (what i do) its all sync work... and i cant export the audio tracks as they carry the panning and bus send keyfreames throughout the project... I do have the latest DVDA, and it still drives me up the wall.. LOL you'd think an app liek this could deciper a 400mb file and not mistake it or a 7gb monster.. SoFo have changed their webpage to Sony and there is a post from SoFOs dev's for what people would like in Vegas... I suggest everyone here go in and have their say... I did... www.sonicfoundry.com forums

September 25th, 2003, 12:17 PM	#4
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	I'm still not sure why you couldn't work that way. Yes, it would be slightly more hassle but you can have the audio as a file separate from the video, render the video to a new file, delete the original AVI and replace it with the newly rendered video. If you have your audio separate in the beginning, you could then leave the original audio alone.

September 26th, 2003, 08:44 AM	#5
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	the probelm still lay that the original projects audio is sourced from teh original DVAvi... i think i get where your coming from and i think i will create the 5.1 environment AFTER the main edit is complete, i can export as wave if needed then set the track properties later.. usualy i like doing things as i go along, but i guess sometimes work routines need t change..

September 26th, 2003, 09:51 AM	#6
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Yes, that is what I was getting at - just render the audio to a SEPARATE WAV file so it is totally independent of the video. Or, as you said, the mix could be done last.

September 26th, 2003, 10:14 AM	#7
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	hey, i just discovered another bug... i dunno if this is camera related but id say it is... now this slo mo jerkiness i was talking about ONLY occurs on the footage which is slo mo'd taken from a small DS88 cam. The same and even slower clips from the mx500's DONT stutter... Ive just been experimenting, and i think as the MX's were set to manual their shutters were set to 1/50 (indoors) while the DS88 was set at the same value in auto mode, now the funny thing is, the "gap" between fields seems wider on the DS than the mx... it DOES sem logical, however i dont understand why it woudl only affect that cam, and that cam is also used as a backup deck for the DVX as well as the VCR deck when capturing... strange...i could be wrong but the issues of juttery slow mos only occurs form footage taken with the smaller older cam... i wonder....

September 26th, 2003, 10:17 AM	#8
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	forgot to mention, does anyone here use Spicemaster??? if u do, there are some tricks to get some incredible disco ball and fairy lights happening... this is great for dark venues, as even though your footage is dark, thee effects can bring out the ambience within the darkness. I jsut finished a wedding which the venue used those horrible purple neoen lights and 3 chasers the chasers were fine, but the neon turned everything blue. so i washed the footage with white fairy lights...

September 26th, 2003, 11:20 AM	#9
Rich MacDonald Tourist Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Kansas City Posts: 4	>there are free applications out there which allwo you to combine files without the need to re-render. Careful. If you're talking about TMPGENC, I've been unable to join mpg files without causing audio/video sync problems. I don't know if others have had the same experience.

September 26th, 2003, 02:55 PM	#10
Sean R Allen Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: RTP, NC Posts: 66	"If you're talking about TMPGENC" He's probably talking about VirtualDub. Peter, interesting all the problems you mentioned with achitect, I've never experienced any of them (with version 1.0c). Always the right file sizes, never wants to re-encode, but then again I always stick to stereo AC-3 so there may be issues there I have yet to run into. The only bug (minor) I've run into is when rendering an AC3 file when architect is open with the file referenced somewhere within it, Vegas will act like it rendered it succesfully (in record time) but in reality it didn't because it was locked. Are you sure you're using 1.0c?

September 26th, 2003, 03:44 PM	#12
Rich MacDonald Tourist Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Kansas City Posts: 4	>I always join my mpg segments with TMPGEnc and have never had a problem. It is very practical. However, I only join the video. The audio I add later as one single file. Maybe this is why you have had sync problems... Maybe. I joined clips that contained both video and audio. However your approach worries me as well. Since the video join can only be at certain frame types, its possible that the joined video has a different length than the original unsplit video. So if you had generated your audio from the original unsplit video, you could get out-of-synch that way as well. And its a random effect, so it may or may not show up on tests. All I know is that I had a 60min clip in Vegas that I rendered in 5 segments (audio and video combined, standard NTSC template), then joined in TMPGENC. The last 15 min of the video was like watching a kung fu movie :-) I haven't performed any further experiments since that debacle. I'm glad YMV.

September 29th, 2003, 08:34 AM	#13
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	yeah mate, system shows 1c build 203 wierd... now one thing i DID do was change teh default disc size form 4.7 to 4.4gb which is teh real measurement when looking at storage... im gonna look into it, but ac3 is ac3 and it shouldnt make a difference.. i never had this issue with the earlier versions of DVDA...

September 29th, 2003, 08:43 AM	#14
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	still does it, jsut messed around with it, and imported an ac3 file of 400mb and it shows up as 3.8gb....

September 29th, 2003, 08:59 AM	#15
Sean R Allen Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: RTP, NC Posts: 66	Peter, the only thing I can think of to do would be to install the 1.0c patch again, maybe a setting somewhere got hosed. Otherwise I'm at a loss at to what may be happening.