capturing a tape yields random # of clips at DVinfo.net

Dave Speer · March 17th, 2009, 04:34 PM

OK I have been looking through the archives using the search fuction for the last hour and I haven't found it but I know I'm not alone.

I captured a tape last night on my way to bed and when I woke up it was 361 clips. When I re-captured it, I got the 4 or 5 clips I expected.

Well I'm down to the last tape from yesterday's shoot and I have captured it three times and each time I get a different number of clips and I know there should only be two. I recorded 30 seconds of bars and one 40 minute scene and that was it.

I'm using Vegas 8c and a Canon XH-A1. My date and time on the camera are set (and were yesterday). Any ideas?

I've finally had it and I think I'll just turn scene detection off and capture the tape at once, for now, but I'd really like to have a clip per scene.

Seth Bloombaum · March 17th, 2009, 05:00 PM

Possibly related to tape dropouts?

Dave Speer · March 17th, 2009, 06:46 PM

uh, I guess I'll hit the search feature again. I've read a lot about "oh, no, dropouts" but I have no idea what they are, how to prevent them, how to detect them, or even if I have them on clips that are in my timelines.

Seth Bloombaum · March 17th, 2009, 10:56 PM

Sorry, didn't mean to be overly mysterious. Properly, "tape dropouts". They can be caused by bad tape, damaged tape, dirty tape, dirty heads, heads with magnetic oxide deposits on them, other deposits or dirt in the tape path that tends to keep the tape from having full contact with the heads.

As camcorder users there isn't much we can do, other than run a cleaning tape through when we have problems. Follow the instructions on the cleaning tape.

A repair tech can do a more thorough cleaning.

However, dropouts are just a strong possibility when you find more clips than you expected. You might capture the whole tape without scene detection and see if Vegas reports dropped frames when the capture completes.

This is more of a problem with HDV than it used to be with DV. One bad frame was just one bad frame with DV, but with the group-of-pictures approach in the HDV codec, one bad frame takes out 15 frames (the whole group).

Dave Speer · March 18th, 2009, 09:50 AM

I recaptured it to one big clip, I forgot to check the status bar on the capture screen to see if it reported dropouts, but, I set "fail on drop frames" on and I set "when capture fails, stop batch capture".

I'll find out in the next day or so if the other tapes also got random clips, but, now I suspect this has been a problem all along. I had another shoot where I thought somebody bumped a pause button right after slating the shot but my guess is now that it was a capture error.

Terry Esslinger · March 18th, 2009, 12:42 PM

I use an FX1 and have been having somewhat the same problem. But what I noticed was that when I was capturing and would watch the LCD on the camera that occasionally the picture would freeze for a short time including the time code then it would jump ahead.

In my capture program I would notice that I would have a new scene at that point when I know the camera was not paused. I have been trying to figure out is it was a drop out problem or a camera problem (though I guess they can be one and the same.) Actually I was trying to figure out if it was a tape problem (I have used Sony Premium exclusively) or a camera mechanical issue. Have not been able to figure out how to do that yet. If its a tape drop out problem may have to go to tapeless, if its a camera problem may have to (gasp) send it to Sony for repair.

Mike Kujbida · March 18th, 2009, 02:37 PM

Dave & Terry, are you guys using new tapes each time or are they used ones?

Dave Speer · March 18th, 2009, 05:16 PM

I'm using new tapes, the Sony HD ones that go for around $9 a pop.

The camera is new and has less than 20 hours on it.

I recaptured a tape this afternoon while I was doing other things, with scene detection off, and it Vegas *still* gave me two clips. I have my screen saver set for 90 minutes so it shouldn't be that either.

Mike Kujbida · March 18th, 2009, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Speer

I recaptured a tape this afternoon while I was doing other things, with scene detection off...

If "other things" means things like surfing the net, that could be your problem.
My personal rule is that when a tape is being captured, nothing else is happening on the computer.
This means disconnect from the net and make sure other resource-hungry apps such as anti-virus aren't running in the background ( as some like to do).

Terry Esslinger · March 18th, 2009, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Kujbida

Dave & Terry, are you guys using new tapes each time or are they used ones?

Mike,
Once with a new tape, once with a once used tape. I have captured a lot of footage with the cam in SD with no problems, but they are MUCH harder to see when not dealing with the GOP system.

Dave Speer · March 19th, 2009, 08:44 AM

Yeah I only use the computer for capture when I'm capturing, close down other apps etc.

I am now getting more than one clip EVEN IF I turn off HD scene detection. Tomorrow I go on a string of shoots that we either get on tape, or, it will be a whole year before I can try again. I seriously hope we are getting proper data on the tapes.

Does anybody still black tapes like they used to do on VHS? What's the procedure, just leave the lens cap on and record the whole tape?

Steve Renouf · March 19th, 2009, 01:09 PM

Interestingly, I've had this issue as well but I haven't tracked down the source of the issue as yet.

After my Brit Panto in France shoot, I captured the 7 tapes to disc, with scene detection, no problem. However, following VISTA managing to "update" my nVidia RAID drivers to the KNOWN broken drivers, somehow - despite my having disabled auto-update - and losing the captures following corruption of the drives, I had to recapture the tapes. This time, I captured them to my G-Tech external RAID.

The first 3 or 4 tapes captured fine (using NeoScene) but the next one ended up at 485 scenes and still counting when I came back to it (there was only one scene on it because it was continuous shoot). Bizarre, I thought, it captured fine the first time...

Rewound the tape and it started then same sillyness again, so I cancelled the capture. I knew wasn't the tape or camera (Z5) as it had previously captured fine. Hmm.... OK then, try a different tape... Same issue... Q£"$^%$^QERY RIGHT THEN! $%%$% VISTA!

Reboot system and start again! Start capture - sit and watch.... really boring this watching the progress counter... Oh, look! The whole tape has been captured fine! Wierd! OK.. Let's do the next one... Oh look! That one's captured fine too! OK. Next! WTF! Now this one's going weird - OK, I know it does have scenes (about 12 if I remember correctly - but not 364!). This is some crazy £$%$£%£$%!

OK. Reboot. Again! Re-capture... Hmmm... That one is fine again. Then the rest were also fine.

My conclusion? It's got absolutely nothing to do with the tape, camera or the phase of the moon and EVERYTHING to do with VISTA'S housekeeping system or something! This is where VISTA really does my head in sometimes!

Never had any of this sort of s**t on W2K, XP or Linux (Ubuntu).

Roll-on W8 - apparently!

Dave Speer · March 19th, 2009, 01:57 PM

Yeah my Vista box blows. I set up a capture box yesterday and I'm trying XP to see what I can do. Still with scene detection off though.

Surprisingly, I'm capturing HD on a box with an 800 MHz processor and 1/2 gig of ram. And I'm having zero issues. Obviously it's not an edit box, but I was literally going to throw this thing in the trash last week but I'm so glad I didn't. Now I can screw around on one computer while capturing on the other :D

I am going to look closely at some of the clip cuts this afternoon. I really don't care how many clips I get in the long run as long as I have smooth frame by frame transition.

Terry Esslinger · March 19th, 2009, 02:23 PM

Unfortunately I am finding that I lose 15-30 frames each time it happens. I'm not at all sure that mine is a Vista problem as I can see the stoppages on the Cam LCD when I play the tape back and I had it happen on an 32 bitXP machine also. Maybe the solution is going to be getting a Sony HVRMRC1 to record to with my FX1. What a pain in the pocketbook.

Jason Davis · March 21st, 2009, 04:51 PM

Dave, just a newbie here, but do you have "enable scene detection on" ???

opps, just read that you did. Did you have any luck turning it off?

March 17th, 2009, 04:34 PM	#1
Dave Speer New Boot Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Lewisville, TX Posts: 21	capturing a tape yields random # of clips OK I have been looking through the archives using the search fuction for the last hour and I haven't found it but I know I'm not alone. I captured a tape last night on my way to bed and when I woke up it was 361 clips. When I re-captured it, I got the 4 or 5 clips I expected. Well I'm down to the last tape from yesterday's shoot and I have captured it three times and each time I get a different number of clips and I know there should only be two. I recorded 30 seconds of bars and one 40 minute scene and that was it. I'm using Vegas 8c and a Canon XH-A1. My date and time on the camera are set (and were yesterday). Any ideas? I've finally had it and I think I'll just turn scene detection off and capture the tape at once, for now, but I'd really like to have a clip per scene.

March 18th, 2009, 12:42 PM	#6
Terry Esslinger Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sacramento, Elk Grove. Calif Posts: 306	I use an FX1 and have been having somewhat the same problem. But what I noticed was that when I was capturing and would watch the LCD on the camera that occasionally the picture would freeze for a short time including the time code then it would jump ahead. In my capture program I would notice that I would have a new scene at that point when I know the camera was not paused. I have been trying to figure out is it was a drop out problem or a camera problem (though I guess they can be one and the same.) Actually I was trying to figure out if it was a tape problem (I have used Sony Premium exclusively) or a camera mechanical issue. Have not been able to figure out how to do that yet. If its a tape drop out problem may have to go to tapeless, if its a camera problem may have to (gasp) send it to Sony for repair. __________________ Puttin the wet stuff on the red stuff!

March 19th, 2009, 02:23 PM	#14
Terry Esslinger Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Sacramento, Elk Grove. Calif Posts: 306	Unfortunately I am finding that I lose 15-30 frames each time it happens. I'm not at all sure that mine is a Vista problem as I can see the stoppages on the Cam LCD when I play the tape back and I had it happen on an 32 bitXP machine also. Maybe the solution is going to be getting a Sony HVRMRC1 to record to with my FX1. What a pain in the pocketbook. __________________ Puttin the wet stuff on the red stuff!

March 21st, 2009, 04:51 PM	#15
Jason Davis Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Missoula Posts: 54	Dave, just a newbie here, but do you have "enable scene detection on" ??? opps, just read that you did. Did you have any luck turning it off? Last edited by Jason Davis; March 21st, 2009 at 04:54 PM. Reason: mistake

March 17th, 2009, 05:00 PM	#2
Seth Bloombaum Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,420	Possibly related to tape dropouts?

March 17th, 2009, 06:46 PM	#3
Dave Speer New Boot Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Lewisville, TX Posts: 21	uh, I guess I'll hit the search feature again. I've read a lot about "oh, no, dropouts" but I have no idea what they are, how to prevent them, how to detect them, or even if I have them on clips that are in my timelines.

March 17th, 2009, 10:56 PM	#4
Seth Bloombaum Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,420	Sorry, didn't mean to be overly mysterious. Properly, "tape dropouts". They can be caused by bad tape, damaged tape, dirty tape, dirty heads, heads with magnetic oxide deposits on them, other deposits or dirt in the tape path that tends to keep the tape from having full contact with the heads. As camcorder users there isn't much we can do, other than run a cleaning tape through when we have problems. Follow the instructions on the cleaning tape. A repair tech can do a more thorough cleaning. However, dropouts are just a strong possibility when you find more clips than you expected. You might capture the whole tape without scene detection and see if Vegas reports dropped frames when the capture completes. This is more of a problem with HDV than it used to be with DV. One bad frame was just one bad frame with DV, but with the group-of-pictures approach in the HDV codec, one bad frame takes out 15 frames (the whole group).

March 18th, 2009, 09:50 AM	#5
Dave Speer New Boot Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Lewisville, TX Posts: 21	I recaptured it to one big clip, I forgot to check the status bar on the capture screen to see if it reported dropouts, but, I set "fail on drop frames" on and I set "when capture fails, stop batch capture". I'll find out in the next day or so if the other tapes also got random clips, but, now I suspect this has been a problem all along. I had another shoot where I thought somebody bumped a pause button right after slating the shot but my guess is now that it was a capture error.

March 18th, 2009, 02:37 PM	#7
Mike Kujbida Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Windsor, ON Canada Posts: 2,770	Dave & Terry, are you guys using new tapes each time or are they used ones?

March 18th, 2009, 05:16 PM	#8
Dave Speer New Boot Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Lewisville, TX Posts: 21	I'm using new tapes, the Sony HD ones that go for around $9 a pop. The camera is new and has less than 20 hours on it. I recaptured a tape this afternoon while I was doing other things, with scene detection off, and it Vegas still gave me two clips. I have my screen saver set for 90 minutes so it shouldn't be that either.

March 19th, 2009, 08:44 AM	#11
Dave Speer New Boot Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Lewisville, TX Posts: 21	Yeah I only use the computer for capture when I'm capturing, close down other apps etc. I am now getting more than one clip EVEN IF I turn off HD scene detection. Tomorrow I go on a string of shoots that we either get on tape, or, it will be a whole year before I can try again. I seriously hope we are getting proper data on the tapes. Does anybody still black tapes like they used to do on VHS? What's the procedure, just leave the lens cap on and record the whole tape?

March 19th, 2009, 01:09 PM	#12
Steve Renouf Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Jersey, GB Posts: 182	Interestingly, I've had this issue as well but I haven't tracked down the source of the issue as yet. After my Brit Panto in France shoot, I captured the 7 tapes to disc, with scene detection, no problem. However, following VISTA managing to "update" my nVidia RAID drivers to the KNOWN broken drivers, somehow - despite my having disabled auto-update - and losing the captures following corruption of the drives, I had to recapture the tapes. This time, I captured them to my G-Tech external RAID. The first 3 or 4 tapes captured fine (using NeoScene) but the next one ended up at 485 scenes and still counting when I came back to it (there was only one scene on it because it was continuous shoot). Bizarre, I thought, it captured fine the first time... Rewound the tape and it started then same sillyness again, so I cancelled the capture. I knew wasn't the tape or camera (Z5) as it had previously captured fine. Hmm.... OK then, try a different tape... Same issue... Q£"$^%$^QERY RIGHT THEN! $%%$% VISTA! Reboot system and start again! Start capture - sit and watch.... really boring this watching the progress counter... Oh, look! The whole tape has been captured fine! Wierd! OK.. Let's do the next one... Oh look! That one's captured fine too! OK. Next! WTF! Now this one's going weird - OK, I know it does have scenes (about 12 if I remember correctly - but not 364!). This is some crazy £$%$£%£$%! OK. Reboot. Again! Re-capture... Hmmm... That one is fine again. Then the rest were also fine. My conclusion? It's got absolutely nothing to do with the tape, camera or the phase of the moon and EVERYTHING to do with VISTA'S housekeeping system or something! This is where VISTA really does my head in sometimes! Never had any of this sort of s**t on W2K, XP or Linux (Ubuntu). Roll-on W8 - apparently!

March 19th, 2009, 01:57 PM	#13
Dave Speer New Boot Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Lewisville, TX Posts: 21	Yeah my Vista box blows. I set up a capture box yesterday and I'm trying XP to see what I can do. Still with scene detection off though. Surprisingly, I'm capturing HD on a box with an 800 MHz processor and 1/2 gig of ram. And I'm having zero issues. Obviously it's not an edit box, but I was literally going to throw this thing in the trash last week but I'm so glad I didn't. Now I can screw around on one computer while capturing on the other :D I am going to look closely at some of the clip cuts this afternoon. I really don't care how many clips I get in the long run as long as I have smooth frame by frame transition.