Terrible looking playback in Vegas???

Tim Cee · January 29th, 2009, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Rocchio

I agree ,the preview monitor in Vegas has not looked sharp for a cou[ple of releases now, same footage in other programs looks sharper than vegas. I dont believe this effects the rendered project, but kind of tuff to know what you really have. When you add the fx sharpness filter in vegas and have it set to zero , seems to bring the footage back to normal.

Okay, I wanted to give this one last try. How can you propery edit your clips if you can not see an accurate preview in the Vegas preview window of your captured footage? It seems foolish at best. Preview window settings do not make enough of a difference to see your clips as accurately as when you view them with an HD TV.
Is it possible to use an additional or stand alone monitor to preview from other than using your PC's monitor or am I still doing something wrong here?
Surely someone has a sollution??? Help???

Denny Dodd · January 29th, 2009, 10:23 PM

Tim,

I too am having the same problem as you. I am upgraded to Vegas Pro 8.0C and thought this would fix it, but it did not. Here is what I do, I bring my video off of my Sony SR12 onto my computer, so it is in AVCHD format. I open up Vegas Pro 8 and select the video I want to edit and while watching it playback in the preview screen it chopping so bad, totally uneditable.

I am trying to convert to Cineform avi to see what the play back looks like after that. I am new to video editing, and this is my first hurdle I am trying to get over. I am trying several different things.

Tim I will keep you posted if I figure anything out, just wanted to let you know that you are not alone here buddy.

Denny

Denny Dodd · January 29th, 2009, 10:37 PM

Well Tim if it makes you feel any better, when I am playing video back in AVCHD format, I am getting 2 frames per second. When I rendered it to Cineform Codec HD 2.8 avi, the playback was not choppy anymore at all, but the quality was horrible, it had jagged lines all over the video, any ideas here?

Also should I put my video into a different format once I bring onto my computer, if so which one?

Thanks
Denny

Perrone Ford · January 29th, 2009, 11:37 PM

Seems to me there are three available solutions

1. Work with proxy files. If you have 16:9 footage, cut a 720x406 proxy file in Cineform, Sony DV, or other efficient codec. Then cut, grade, and do whatever else you need ot do. At the end of the editing process, do a media replacement with your original footage and the software will do everything to the original, it did to your proxy files. Leaving you with fully finished HD material.

2. Use Dynamic RAM rendering. While this will only allow you short sections to view at a time (depending on available RAM, you will get full speed playback after very short render times.

3. Selectively pre-render. This one gets a bit more tricky, but does allow you to render short portions of your file to easy to playback formats that give a reasonable approximation of the finished footage.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. By and large, Hollywood with their $50k editing machines are still cutting on proxies for the most part. Ironman broke new ground in being one of the first features to actually be cut at HD and screened in HD using Avid's DNxHD 36 codec. It's not very good for Vegas use (slow as molasses) but I master to it and it works great for that. Sometimes I cut with it, if I don't have much editing to do.

It baffles me why you guys fight these battles with 1080p AVCHD when people with million dollar editing budgets won't even bother. Cut proxies and save yourselves tons of headaches.

Perrone Ford · January 29th, 2009, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Denny Dodd

When I rendered it to Cineform Codec HD 2.8 avi, the playback was not choppy anymore at all, but the quality was horrible, it had jagged lines all over the video, any ideas here?

Thanks
Denny

Lots of ideas, but a screen shot of your render settings would remove the guesswork.

Tim Cee · January 30th, 2009, 10:46 AM

Choppy I can handle, Choppy is not my problem and by the way I am not using AVCHD, I am using HD in 60i straight from the Canon XHA1, captured via my playback deck which is a Canon HV30.......
Once again fellas, when I view the clips directly from my time line it appears in the Vegas Preview Window, regardless of the window settings, as a low quality preview. The project does render out fine with the quality expected. My problem is the preview quality while editing and viewing the playback. How can you accurately edit and adjust the clips if you can not view it in playback as close to what it really is?

Perrone Ford · January 30th, 2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Cee

Once again fellas, when I view the clips directly from my time line it appears in the Vegas Preview Window, regardless of the window settings, as a low quality preview.

Go to Options > Preferences > Video and take a screenshot. Post it here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Cee

How can you accurately edit and adjust the clips if you can not view it in playback as close to what it really is?

We can't and we don't. My preview looks awesome, so let's see if we can't fix yours.

Bryan Daugherty · January 30th, 2009, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Cee

...Is it possible to use an additional or stand alone monitor to preview from other than using your PC's monitor...

yes it is, you can purchase an AJA Xena card (HD-SDI) for PC or Black magic Intensity card (HDMI) and hook up your 1080 HDTV via HDMI or HD-SDI (if your HD monitor accepts HD-SDI) and this will give you preview as it will be seen on TV. However, if your system is not playing back good quality on the preview window it may not give got quality even on the external monitor. Of course many people just use the secondary window display to hook up via existing DVI/VGA/or s-video connection but that is not the same as connecting to an AJA card, intensity card, or Black magic HD decklink.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

...1. Work with proxy files.
2. Use Dynamic RAM rendering.
3. Selectively pre-render.
...Cut proxies and save yourselves tons of headaches.

I don't use proxies and my playback is great using HDV, if memory serves Perrone is shooting XDCAM and getting the quality boost there so maybe proxies work better for him, but with my HDV workflow I have never needed proxies. i have used the selectively prerender for my more complicated edits or when i use more than one Magic bullet effects simultaneously to aid playback and I find it works well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

Go to Options > Preferences > Video and take a screenshot... My preview looks awesome, so let's see if we can't fix yours.

I agree with Perrone, if you could show us your settings and maybe a screenshot of what your preview window looks like (record 15 sec with your cam if it helps) and let us know what looks bad about it, we will do our best. It also would be helpful to know what vid card you are using as some effects like Magic Bullet can use GPU acceleration to aid playback.

Tim Cee · February 4th, 2009, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan Daugherty

yes it is, you can purchase an AJA Xena card (HD-SDI) for PC or Black magic Intensity card (HDMI) and hook up your 1080 HDTV via HDMI or HD-SDI (if your HD monitor accepts HD-SDI) and this will give you preview as it will be seen on TV. However, if your system is not playing back good quality on the preview window it may not give got quality even on the external monitor. Of course many people just use the secondary window display to hook up via existing DVI/VGA/or s-video connection but that is not the same as connecting to an AJA card, intensity card, or Black magic HD decklink.

I don't use proxies and my playback is great using HDV, if memory serves Perrone is shooting XDCAM and getting the quality boost there so maybe proxies work better for him, but with my HDV workflow I have never needed proxies. i have used the selectively prerender for my more complicated edits or when i use more than one Magic bullet effects simultaneously to aid playback and I find it works well.

I agree with Perrone, if you could show us your settings and maybe a screenshot of what your preview window looks like (record 15 sec with your cam if it helps) and let us know what looks bad about it, we will do our best. It also would be helpful to know what vid card you are using as some effects like Magic Bullet can use GPU acceleration to aid playback.

Thanks you guys. I will get on that first thing tomorrow morning and supply what you ask. As is now I have a semi decent looking preview but nothing near as I imagine is needed for proper editing. Thanks again.

Perrone Ford · February 4th, 2009, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan Daugherty

I don't use proxies and my playback is great using HDV, if memory serves Perrone is shooting XDCAM and getting the quality boost there so maybe proxies work better for him, but with my HDV workflow I have never needed proxies.

Just a note here. I don't need proxies for my XDCam footage on the timeline, but I master to DNxHD (145/175/220) and in 10 bit if I am going to do heavy color work on the footage. And for that, proxies are necessary.

Tim Cee · February 7th, 2009, 10:06 AM

Hey Everyone, while gathering the system and settings info you requested I post I noticed that I am using 500 MB of 1024 available MB of RAM. Am I chasing my tail thinking that is my issue or? It just stuck out for some reason. I hope this helps you help me as this is frustrating to me so I know it is getting old with all of you. I apologize and definitely appreciate all the help. I have come to the opinion that my Vegas preview window will never have the same playback quality as watching my footage via an HDTV or watching it full screen on my PC. I hope the info below leads us some place. I have attached a screen shot of my settings in the video tab of prefferences, hope that was what you needed. Thanks again!
My PC system is as follows: My Dell PC Specs
Windows Vista 32 bit
Dell XP 420 with Intel Core 2 Quad CPU Q6700 @ 2.66 GHz x 2.66 GHz
4 GB Ram
Nvidia GeForce 8800 GTX Graphics Card
22” LCD Monitor using Spyder for calibration
Vegas Pro 8
Canon XH A1
Canon HV30 for playback and capture

Andy Todzia · February 7th, 2009, 12:11 PM

I don't think that is going to solve your problem because I have 4 GB of ram allocated on this screen (out of 12 GB total, Vista 64 bit) and I am not happy with full screen playback. Reduced size playback is sharper, but it stills stutter. I think Sony needs to address this in the next version.

Perrone Ford · February 7th, 2009, 12:43 PM

That setting is for RAM renders. Which you don't seem to be doing, but are not a part of the problem you describe. But reading back through the thread carefully, I wanted to ask you this.

In your project properties. (File > Properties), is your pixel format 8-bit or 32-bit. If it's set at 8, change it to 32-bit and see if this improves what you see. It will have other ramifications, but I am curious about this.

-P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Cee

Hey Everyone, while gathering the system and settings info you requested I post I noticed that I am using 500 MB of 1024 available MB of RAM. Am I chasing my tail thinking that is my issue or? It just stuck out for some reason.

Tim Cee · February 7th, 2009, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perrone Ford

That setting is for RAM renders. Which you don't seem to be doing, but are not a part of the problem you describe. But reading back through the thread carefully, I wanted to ask you this.

In your project properties. (File > Properties), is your pixel format 8-bit or 32-bit. If it's set at 8, change it to 32-bit and see if this improves what you see. It will have other ramifications, but I am curious about this.

-P

Other Ramifications? Specifics Please? And Thanks, I will try that real fast then check back here in case you answered.

Edward Troxel · February 7th, 2009, 07:06 PM

The RAM setting is mainly for RAM previews but is also used some in rendering. I've seen instances where setting the RAM number large would cause a render to fail while setting it to a low number would let it succeed. I do NOT recommend dropping it to 0, though.

As for the 8-bit setting vs the 32-bit setting, the 8-bit setting is the default and will definitely be FASTER than the 32-bit setting.

January 29th, 2009, 11:37 PM	#34
Perrone Ford Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 4,100	Seems to me there are three available solutions 1. Work with proxy files. If you have 16:9 footage, cut a 720x406 proxy file in Cineform, Sony DV, or other efficient codec. Then cut, grade, and do whatever else you need ot do. At the end of the editing process, do a media replacement with your original footage and the software will do everything to the original, it did to your proxy files. Leaving you with fully finished HD material. 2. Use Dynamic RAM rendering. While this will only allow you short sections to view at a time (depending on available RAM, you will get full speed playback after very short render times. 3. Selectively pre-render. This one gets a bit more tricky, but does allow you to render short portions of your file to easy to playback formats that give a reasonable approximation of the finished footage. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. By and large, Hollywood with their $50k editing machines are still cutting on proxies for the most part. Ironman broke new ground in being one of the first features to actually be cut at HD and screened in HD using Avid's DNxHD 36 codec. It's not very good for Vegas use (slow as molasses) but I master to it and it works great for that. Sometimes I cut with it, if I don't have much editing to do. It baffles me why you guys fight these battles with 1080p AVCHD when people with million dollar editing budgets won't even bother. Cut proxies and save yourselves tons of headaches. __________________ DVX100, PMW-EX1, Canon 550D, FigRig, Dell Octocore, Avid MC4/5, MB Looks, RedCineX, Matrox MX02 mini, GTech RAID, Edirol R-4, Senn. G2 Evo, Countryman, Moles and Lowels.

January 30th, 2009, 10:46 AM	#36
Tim Cee Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Orange County, California Posts: 179	Choppy I can handle, Choppy is not my problem and by the way I am not using AVCHD, I am using HD in 60i straight from the Canon XHA1, captured via my playback deck which is a Canon HV30....... Once again fellas, when I view the clips directly from my time line it appears in the Vegas Preview Window, regardless of the window settings, as a low quality preview. The project does render out fine with the quality expected. My problem is the preview quality while editing and viewing the playback. How can you accurately edit and adjust the clips if you can not view it in playback as close to what it really is? __________________ www.socalt.com

February 7th, 2009, 10:06 AM	#41
Tim Cee Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Orange County, California Posts: 179	Hey Everyone, while gathering the system and settings info you requested I post I noticed that I am using 500 MB of 1024 available MB of RAM. Am I chasing my tail thinking that is my issue or? It just stuck out for some reason. I hope this helps you help me as this is frustrating to me so I know it is getting old with all of you. I apologize and definitely appreciate all the help. I have come to the opinion that my Vegas preview window will never have the same playback quality as watching my footage via an HDTV or watching it full screen on my PC. I hope the info below leads us some place. I have attached a screen shot of my settings in the video tab of prefferences, hope that was what you needed. Thanks again! My PC system is as follows: My Dell PC Specs Windows Vista 32 bit Dell XP 420 with Intel Core 2 Quad CPU Q6700 @ 2.66 GHz x 2.66 GHz 4 GB Ram Nvidia GeForce 8800 GTX Graphics Card 22” LCD Monitor using Spyder for calibration Vegas Pro 8 Canon XH A1 Canon HV30 for playback and capture Attached Thumbnails __________________ www.socalt.com

February 7th, 2009, 07:06 PM	#45
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	The RAM setting is mainly for RAM previews but is also used some in rendering. I've seen instances where setting the RAM number large would cause a render to fail while setting it to a low number would let it succeed. I do NOT recommend dropping it to 0, though. As for the 8-bit setting vs the 32-bit setting, the 8-bit setting is the default and will definitely be FASTER than the 32-bit setting. __________________ Edward Troxel [SCVU] JETDV Scripts/Scripting Tutorials/Excalibur/Montage Magic/Newsletters

January 29th, 2009, 10:23 PM	#32
Denny Dodd Tourist Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Newcastle, OK Posts: 2	Tim, I too am having the same problem as you. I am upgraded to Vegas Pro 8.0C and thought this would fix it, but it did not. Here is what I do, I bring my video off of my Sony SR12 onto my computer, so it is in AVCHD format. I open up Vegas Pro 8 and select the video I want to edit and while watching it playback in the preview screen it chopping so bad, totally uneditable. I am trying to convert to Cineform avi to see what the play back looks like after that. I am new to video editing, and this is my first hurdle I am trying to get over. I am trying several different things. Tim I will keep you posted if I figure anything out, just wanted to let you know that you are not alone here buddy. Denny

January 29th, 2009, 10:37 PM	#33
Denny Dodd Tourist Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Newcastle, OK Posts: 2	Well Tim if it makes you feel any better, when I am playing video back in AVCHD format, I am getting 2 frames per second. When I rendered it to Cineform Codec HD 2.8 avi, the playback was not choppy anymore at all, but the quality was horrible, it had jagged lines all over the video, any ideas here? Also should I put my video into a different format once I bring onto my computer, if so which one? Thanks Denny

February 7th, 2009, 12:11 PM	#42
Andy Todzia Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Enfield, CT Posts: 34	I don't think that is going to solve your problem because I have 4 GB of ram allocated on this screen (out of 12 GB total, Vista 64 bit) and I am not happy with full screen playback. Reduced size playback is sharper, but it stills stutter. I think Sony needs to address this in the next version.