Trouble with Print to tape *#*@** at DVinfo.net

Ron Cooper · December 30th, 2008, 10:49 PM

I am having trouble (The air is blue), trying to print to tape - (DVD recorder with firewire input). It has worked fine for the last 3 times but now I am just about ready to toss it in.

Why does Vegas 8.3 spend ages pre-rendering etc and then when you get to the very last stage of pressing the go button, ( after going through all the marigmaroll setting up the DVD recorder), and then pressing the record button it counts down and politely says "An unexpected error occurred when creating the media file"

To make matters worse, I then have to stop the DVD recorder after a few seconds thus creating a coaster or in the case of DVDRW, having to erase the data and try again.

Now even worse, when you try again, wretched V8 has to start all over and go through all the motions AGAIN with all the print to tape prerendering etc which takes about another15 mins. Why does it not save these pre-rendered files for goodness sake ? Is there somewhere where I can check to see what is wrong or where these files may be saved? I can't see any place to check what Vegas does with these files or what options I have.

I have now repeated all this palava THREE times with the same result.

In the good ole' days of Prem. 6.5 - ( sigh, - bring on the violins !), you simply played out the timeline to the recorder and "Voila" ! - No hassles, same recorder. (Sony RDR-GX7). - These days I dread making DVD's. - Who unleashed this flawed mess ?

The project is 70 mins. long and as I said before I have already done this 3 times before with no trouble with this project. I am (fortunately), using a DVD-RW and have had to make minor editing changes in Vegas each time but now this is driving me nuts. - How do you pro guys ever make any money out of this business ? - Luckily it is more or less a (frustrating), hobby with me !

RonC.

Graham Bernard · December 31st, 2008, 12:38 AM

Ron? Could you please, slowly, describe your "route" again? Start from WHERE the signal is coming from and WHERE it is going to? And the points at which it comes in and out of your PC - via firewire? - to your DVD recorder?

Something, this time, is arguing with the f/w streams.

I hear your pain!

Grazie

Hugh Mobley · December 31st, 2008, 01:07 AM

take a look at cineform, its flawless back to tape,

Ian Stark · December 31st, 2008, 02:59 AM

Hi Ron,

In addition to the above suggestions, have you added anything new to the timeline since the last successful render? I'm wondering if you have any dodgy media that is causing Vegas to fall over. It's been a cause of frustration for me in the past - not a Vegas fault but purely down to a clip that was corrupted.

Have you changed any settings in the print-to-tape dialogue?

Have you tried rendering the whole version of your project then trying to print that to tape? Additional steps, I know, but it may get the job done.

Out of interest, is this a standalone consumer DVD recorder you are using? I wasn't aware that you could print-to-tape to anything other than DV tape.

Graham Bernard · December 31st, 2008, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Stark

Out of interest, is this a standalone consumer DVD recorder you are using? I wasn't aware that you could print-to-tape to anything other than DV tape.

. . and this is why I asked the question, about the "route".

And yes, you can. Of course you need to get a non-digital ie AV stream coming FROM the pc. In the past I used to send PTT via a converter OUT to a VHS deck. It meant that one has to ensure that there is no digital device is at the "receiving-end" of the stream. Within the PTT workflow IS a "Manual (no device control) . . " is selected. And THEN you have to cue it manually. In VP8c this has been subtly changed. Without powering up V7 or V6 I can't step it out here, Ian, but it does appear from memory that there IS a difference and maybe this is where our chum has go to.

However, as our chum here appears to have repeated this "performance" before, I was more than aware of the success he HAD had. And I was again wanting him to explain, step-by-step, exactly what he was doing this time that many have been different.

Now, what I am truly interested in is that WHEN this AV stream hits the DVD recorder, does the DVD rec then need to create a DVD compliant<>MPGE2 file and structure?

Grazie

Ron Cooper · December 31st, 2008, 03:58 AM

Thank you all very much for your concerns.
The firewire route is stock standard, just firewire out on the PC to firewire in on the DVD recorder with a good quality cable that has not been moved since I started this operation 2 days ago. The PC is simply running V8 which I have been editing this project on and the signal is fine passing through the DVD recorder out onto its monitor.

Since the last render, I did a couple of edits but no new files were added, just tidied up a few transitions and re-synced an audio event that was 3 frames ahead. - This Audio event, like many in this project was re-worked in S/F, de-noised & EQ'd etc previously, saved as a separate file, and relaced the original clip audio. - That's how it came to be out of sync, so all I did was move it 3 frames.

However, on thinking carefully about your question Ian, I did click on "Clean Project Media" in the Tools menu, thinking this might remove unnecessary files. - At the time it did not seem to do anything and the timeline did not flinch. - Maybe this is the problem ?? Wouldn't it be nice that when Vegas gives an error message that it opens a link in the help menu so you can sought it out and also if the error message at least appeared during the count-down, NOT when it goes to playback after youv'e started the other equipment!

Apart from the minor edits which I also did on correcting previous DVD burns and were successful, this was the only thing that was different this time.

Yes Ian, the DVD recorder is a good quality domestic standalone unit which I have used for several years without these sort of troubles and firewire is firewire, it doesn't matter realy what you feed it to as long as it confirms to the normal firewire standards. This recorder also allows you to record straight from camera via firewire which I have done in the past.

Thanks again and a happy new year to you all. -

RonC.
PS. - Don't forget to look at the Sydney fireworks on your telly later. There is over 50% more this year than last year !

Ian Stark · December 31st, 2008, 04:03 AM

Yes, you're quite right of course Grazie. Sorry, what I meant to say was 'other than DV', not 'other than DV tape'- in other words I didn't know you could print to tape to burn a DVD straight off using a DVD recorder.

Ian Stark · December 31st, 2008, 04:20 AM

Long shot, Ron - try removing that audio clip you edited and see if that changes anything. I'd also remove the associated video clip just to see if that's where your issue lies. Unlikely I know, but stranger things have happened and if that is the only single thing that's changed then that would be the first place to look.

I don't think the Clean Project Media action would do anything to cause problems - I do it frequently (although I don't print to tape very often).

I'll leave Grazie to comment on the firewire side of things. His experience is far greater than mine in that area!

Happy New year to you too.

Ian . . .

Graham Bernard · December 31st, 2008, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Cooper

PS. - Don't forget to look at the Sydney fireworks on your telly later. There is over 50% more this year than last year !

Blimey! 50% more??? if that's the case I wont NEED to switch on the telly - all we will need to do is kinda swivel our London-gaze Southwards!!

Grazie

Graham Bernard · December 31st, 2008, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Stark

I'll leave Grazie to comment on the firewire side of things. His experience is far greater than mine in that area!

You're far too kind, Ian . . . But I have too ask: Why is my experience greater? Got me lost there? And, quite frankly, I am STILL not convinced that internally to the DVD recorder that the DV>f/w stream is not being re-encoded to AV and thence to a DVD complaint stream? Do you see that? Otherwise what we have here is a DV stream being converted to a MPEG dvd system for re-read. Now that WOULD be something I need to understand.

Also, and here is my point, at loooong last, as Ron can record an AV stream(?) from his telly - is it an AV stream? I should have be asking this before? - then surely that same AV stream needs to be reassembled as a DVD compliant format. This would in turn require that that the conversion is already in place. Now, if there is this f/w DV stream coming in, what is the next step in the route?

Actually, thinking about it, it IS amazing that any of this stuff works at all!

Anyway, I'm still interested in Ron's solution(?). Fascinating stuff!

Hey, at the end of the day, if it works it works! It is only times like this that "one" has to know a bit more.

Grazie

Ian Stark · December 31st, 2008, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham Bernard

You're far too kind, Ian . . . But I have too ask: Why is my experience greater? Got me lost there?

Here's why . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham Bernard

.......internally to the DVD recorder that the DV>f/w stream is not being re-encoded to AV and thence to a DVD complaint stream? Do you see that? Otherwise what we have here is a DV stream being converted to a MPEG dvd system for re-read........as Ron can record an AV stream(?) from his telly - is it an AV stream? I should have be asking this before? - then surely that same AV stream needs to be reassembled as a DVD compliant format. This would in turn require that that the conversion is already in place. Now, if there is this f/w DV stream coming in, what is the next step in the route?

I don't even understand the questions! :-)

But as you quite rightly say, all fascinating stuff. Here's to understanding it all in 2009. Cheers!

Graham Bernard · December 31st, 2008, 05:20 AM

I think in future, I'll just stick with framing, pressing the RED button, editing in Vegas and having my clients come back to me.

And more of: K.I.S.S.

Grazie

Ian Stark · December 31st, 2008, 05:23 AM

Hehehe - I'll drink to KISS and to repeat clients!

Happy New Year Grazie - always good to read your posts.

Edward Troxel · December 31st, 2008, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Cooper

Why does Vegas 8.3 spend ages pre-rendering etc and then when you get to the very last stage of pressing the go button, ( after going through all the marigmaroll setting up the DVD recorder), and then pressing the record button it counts down and politely says "An unexpected error occurred when creating the media file"

To make matters worse, I then have to stop the DVD recorder after a few seconds thus creating a coaster or in the case of DVDRW, having to erase the data and try again.

If you're going to DVD, why are you doing a Print To Tape? Instead, you'd be better off rendering to MPEG2 and AC3 and using DVD Architect to burn to a DVD straight in your computer.

Ron Cooper · January 1st, 2009, 12:43 AM

Thanks again Grazie, Ian & Ted.
On re-reading your replies I get the impression (may be wrong though), that you feel that the fault is in the DVD recorder. The error comes up in Vegas, - the recorder just continues recording nothing until I stop it.

Now about encoding and KISS. This is precisely WHY, I usually make a DVD this way. - It IS so simple. Also, just a few years back when I was authoring DVD's in Ulead DVD Workshop, (with a difficult learning curve), and burning them on the PC, I had a lot of instances where they would not play in some DVD players even though they were OK on several that I have here. On talking to an elderly gentleman friend, who had presented me with a DVD of my own work with the quality as if I was playing back original footage directly into TV from my camera, it came out that it he was not into all this menu & authoring stuff, he just simply recorded his DVD's on this Sony machine via firewire !

I was staggered to say the least. He also said that he had very little compatability problems with other players. Amazingly, a short time later, another friend (who was helping me with Ulead & also had similar problems), came accros a firm that was offering these Sony DVD recorders at a third the normal price. So we all bought these recorders at a further quantity discount ! (about $600 Aust. - originally about $2K.)

This led me to do further investigation, particularly on the quality and compatability issue. Apparently the DVD recorder does HARDWARE Mpeg encoding from whatever source is selected. In fact I have never used this recorder via my TV through the analogue inputs as I bought it specifically for its firewire capability and it resides in my PC edit room. Curiously, when I first got it and was using Prem 6.5, (sigh !), I rendered my movies back to camera tape (via firewire), and then from the tape (via firewire), to the DVD recorder. With a bit of lateral thinking I thought why not go straight to the DVD recorder which I have done for years, - no problem.

To me, - partly because of my unfamiliarity with DVDA, but also having do all this Mpeg encoding stuff, - 2 pass encoding for longer jobs, plus separate audio, it is a breeze to simply output to firewire from the timeline and hit the record button ! Of course I realise that you get no flashy menus etc, but the recorder does put auto chapter points at six minute intervals on the resulting DVD and has a simple titler. This method is particularly handy with this project, as it will probably end up being authored in DVDA, but I have to get it OK'ed by the person involved, so a quick one-off should be quite simple.

This still leads me to being confused about where Vegas puts its print-to-tape rendering files so I may be able to at least save them.

Sorry about this long winded explanation but I hope this helps you to see where I'm coming from.

RonC.

December 30th, 2008, 10:49 PM	#1
Ron Cooper Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 481	Trouble with Print to tape #@** I am having trouble (The air is blue), trying to print to tape - (DVD recorder with firewire input). It has worked fine for the last 3 times but now I am just about ready to toss it in. Why does Vegas 8.3 spend ages pre-rendering etc and then when you get to the very last stage of pressing the go button, ( after going through all the marigmaroll setting up the DVD recorder), and then pressing the record button it counts down and politely says "An unexpected error occurred when creating the media file" To make matters worse, I then have to stop the DVD recorder after a few seconds thus creating a coaster or in the case of DVDRW, having to erase the data and try again. Now even worse, when you try again, wretched V8 has to start all over and go through all the motions AGAIN with all the print to tape prerendering etc which takes about another15 mins. Why does it not save these pre-rendered files for goodness sake ? Is there somewhere where I can check to see what is wrong or where these files may be saved? I can't see any place to check what Vegas does with these files or what options I have. I have now repeated all this palava THREE times with the same result. In the good ole' days of Prem. 6.5 - ( sigh, - bring on the violins !), you simply played out the timeline to the recorder and "Voila" ! - No hassles, same recorder. (Sony RDR-GX7). - These days I dread making DVD's. - Who unleashed this flawed mess ? The project is 70 mins. long and as I said before I have already done this 3 times before with no trouble with this project. I am (fortunately), using a DVD-RW and have had to make minor editing changes in Vegas each time but now this is driving me nuts. - How do you pro guys ever make any money out of this business ? - Luckily it is more or less a (frustrating), hobby with me ! RonC.

December 31st, 2008, 01:07 AM	#3
Hugh Mobley Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Placentia, Calif Posts: 549	take a look at cineform, its flawless back to tape, __________________ Hugh Mobley www.petplanetvideos.com http://exposureroom.com/members/hmobley.aspx/

December 31st, 2008, 02:59 AM	#4
Ian Stark Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hampshire, UK Posts: 2,237	Hi Ron, In addition to the above suggestions, have you added anything new to the timeline since the last successful render? I'm wondering if you have any dodgy media that is causing Vegas to fall over. It's been a cause of frustration for me in the past - not a Vegas fault but purely down to a clip that was corrupted. Have you changed any settings in the print-to-tape dialogue? Have you tried rendering the whole version of your project then trying to print that to tape? Additional steps, I know, but it may get the job done. Out of interest, is this a standalone consumer DVD recorder you are using? I wasn't aware that you could print-to-tape to anything other than DV tape. __________________ www.vit-media.com www.classicmachinefilms.co.uk

December 31st, 2008, 04:03 AM	#7
Ian Stark Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hampshire, UK Posts: 2,237	Yes, you're quite right of course Grazie. Sorry, what I meant to say was 'other than DV', not 'other than DV tape'- in other words I didn't know you could print to tape to burn a DVD straight off using a DVD recorder. __________________ www.vit-media.com www.classicmachinefilms.co.uk

December 31st, 2008, 04:20 AM	#8
Ian Stark Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hampshire, UK Posts: 2,237	Long shot, Ron - try removing that audio clip you edited and see if that changes anything. I'd also remove the associated video clip just to see if that's where your issue lies. Unlikely I know, but stranger things have happened and if that is the only single thing that's changed then that would be the first place to look. I don't think the Clean Project Media action would do anything to cause problems - I do it frequently (although I don't print to tape very often). I'll leave Grazie to comment on the firewire side of things. His experience is far greater than mine in that area! Happy New year to you too. Ian . . . __________________ www.vit-media.com www.classicmachinefilms.co.uk

December 31st, 2008, 12:38 AM	#2
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	Ron? Could you please, slowly, describe your "route" again? Start from WHERE the signal is coming from and WHERE it is going to? And the points at which it comes in and out of your PC - via firewire? - to your DVD recorder? Something, this time, is arguing with the f/w streams. I hear your pain! Grazie

December 31st, 2008, 03:58 AM	#6
Ron Cooper Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 481	Thank you all very much for your concerns. The firewire route is stock standard, just firewire out on the PC to firewire in on the DVD recorder with a good quality cable that has not been moved since I started this operation 2 days ago. The PC is simply running V8 which I have been editing this project on and the signal is fine passing through the DVD recorder out onto its monitor. Since the last render, I did a couple of edits but no new files were added, just tidied up a few transitions and re-synced an audio event that was 3 frames ahead. - This Audio event, like many in this project was re-worked in S/F, de-noised & EQ'd etc previously, saved as a separate file, and relaced the original clip audio. - That's how it came to be out of sync, so all I did was move it 3 frames. However, on thinking carefully about your question Ian, I did click on "Clean Project Media" in the Tools menu, thinking this might remove unnecessary files. - At the time it did not seem to do anything and the timeline did not flinch. - Maybe this is the problem ?? Wouldn't it be nice that when Vegas gives an error message that it opens a link in the help menu so you can sought it out and also if the error message at least appeared during the count-down, NOT when it goes to playback after youv'e started the other equipment! Apart from the minor edits which I also did on correcting previous DVD burns and were successful, this was the only thing that was different this time. Yes Ian, the DVD recorder is a good quality domestic standalone unit which I have used for several years without these sort of troubles and firewire is firewire, it doesn't matter realy what you feed it to as long as it confirms to the normal firewire standards. This recorder also allows you to record straight from camera via firewire which I have done in the past. Thanks again and a happy new year to you all. - RonC. PS. - Don't forget to look at the Sydney fireworks on your telly later. There is over 50% more this year than last year !

December 31st, 2008, 05:20 AM	#12
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	I think in future, I'll just stick with framing, pressing the RED button, editing in Vegas and having my clients come back to me. And more of: *K.I.S.S.* Grazie

December 31st, 2008, 05:23 AM	#13
Ian Stark Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hampshire, UK Posts: 2,237	Hehehe - I'll drink to KISS and to repeat clients! Happy New Year Grazie - always good to read your posts. __________________ www.vit-media.com www.classicmachinefilms.co.uk

January 1st, 2009, 12:43 AM	#15
Ron Cooper Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 481	Thanks again Grazie, Ian & Ted. On re-reading your replies I get the impression (may be wrong though), that you feel that the fault is in the DVD recorder. The error comes up in Vegas, - the recorder just continues recording nothing until I stop it. Now about encoding and KISS. This is precisely WHY, I usually make a DVD this way. - It IS so simple. Also, just a few years back when I was authoring DVD's in Ulead DVD Workshop, (with a difficult learning curve), and burning them on the PC, I had a lot of instances where they would not play in some DVD players even though they were OK on several that I have here. On talking to an elderly gentleman friend, who had presented me with a DVD of my own work with the quality as if I was playing back original footage directly into TV from my camera, it came out that it he was not into all this menu & authoring stuff, he just simply recorded his DVD's on this Sony machine via firewire ! I was staggered to say the least. He also said that he had very little compatability problems with other players. Amazingly, a short time later, another friend (who was helping me with Ulead & also had similar problems), came accros a firm that was offering these Sony DVD recorders at a third the normal price. So we all bought these recorders at a further quantity discount ! (about $600 Aust. - originally about $2K.) This led me to do further investigation, particularly on the quality and compatability issue. Apparently the DVD recorder does HARDWARE Mpeg encoding from whatever source is selected. In fact I have never used this recorder via my TV through the analogue inputs as I bought it specifically for its firewire capability and it resides in my PC edit room. Curiously, when I first got it and was using Prem 6.5, (sigh !), I rendered my movies back to camera tape (via firewire), and then from the tape (via firewire), to the DVD recorder. With a bit of lateral thinking I thought why not go straight to the DVD recorder which I have done for years, - no problem. To me, - partly because of my unfamiliarity with DVDA, but also having do all this Mpeg encoding stuff, - 2 pass encoding for longer jobs, plus separate audio, it is a breeze to simply output to firewire from the timeline and hit the record button ! Of course I realise that you get no flashy menus etc, but the recorder does put auto chapter points at six minute intervals on the resulting DVD and has a simple titler. This method is particularly handy with this project, as it will probably end up being authored in DVDA, but I have to get it OK'ed by the person involved, so a quick one-off should be quite simple. This still leads me to being confused about where Vegas puts its print-to-tape rendering files so I may be able to at least save them. Sorry about this long winded explanation but I hope this helps you to see where I'm coming from. RonC.