Trouble with Print to tape *#*@**

Graham Bernard · January 1st, 2009, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Troxel

If you're going to DVD, why are you doing a Print To Tape? Instead, you'd be better off rendering to MPEG2 and AC3 and using DVD Architect to burn to a DVD straight in your computer.

He wants to make use of the "ease" of making a PTT option work DIRECTLY to his DVD Recorder - period! He doesn't want menus or chapters or anything else. Added to which his DVD Recorder WILL produce 6 minutes auto "jump" points. And to my way of thinking too, this WOULD be an ideal situ - for specific EASY projects. I've understood this from the beginning.

And here's the simple schematic of the approaches:

A] Vegas Timeline > Editing > PTT > Record DIRECTLY to DVD recorder = DONE!

B] Vegas Timeline > Editing > Encode to 2 separate streams of MPEG2 and AC3 ( this IS what I do too!) > open DVDA > Search for the 2 files > Import to DVDA > Drag files to Workspace > DO NOT MAKE MENUS (why then come to DVDA?)> Prepare Disc > Setup Prepare folders > check for any requirements for re-render (the graphics of the non-Menu "Menu" > Burn DVD

So I can really understand the advantages Ron says.

Which leads me onto the final and actual finesse of this this thread - maybe!

Presently Ron has attempted to use f/w from PC to DVD recorder. This would then be a DV stream - yes? So, by a process of elimination this means he is NOT using AV from his PC to his recorder. Also, Vegas is thinking that: "As I am sending Firewire OUT then I have direct control of the deck/camera UNTIL I am told otherwise!" - there IS a option to disengage the device control and maybe that that is where he is falling over? Ron has not confirmed nor denied this. Yeah?

Now if all what I have written stands up, then we have a device, PC+Vegas, thinking that it is control of a box, the DVD Recorder, and wants to "control" it. But manifestly the DVD recorder is having none of it! So I am still thinking that Ron needs to, from within Vegas PTT, disengage control, if he wishes to use the f/w out.

Now, this leads me onto the next hurdle: The file that is now streaming towards the DVD recorder may NOT be of any use to the DVD recorder?

OK . ..

Ron says: "Apparently the DVD recorder does HARDWARE Mpeg encoding from whatever source is selected." That's it right there! And why I asked the question way back. Now, from what I am understanding Premiere COULD send a f/w stream out to the DVD recorder AND the recorder WOULD encode to the DVD platter using its inbuilt encoding hardware. But it would appear that Vegas wont. And my thoughts are these:

A] Vegas has this Device Control option, which needs to be considered!

B] The file being sent through f/w is NOT something that the DVD recorder can recognise and deal with. And until A] is explored, I wouldn't know.

Ron also says this: "In fact I have never used this recorder via my TV through the analogue inputs as I bought it specifically for its firewire capability and it resides in my PC edit room. Curiously, when I first got it and was using Prem 6.5, (sigh !), I rendered my movies back to camera tape (via firewire), and then from the tape (via firewire), to the DVD recorder. With a bit of lateral thinking I thought why not go straight to the DVD recorder which I have done for years, - no problem." - do you see that? From Premiere it was a simple f/w to f/w to the DVD recorder option. And THAT is where the rot set in. And I can understand this. I would be the same. I would be thinking: "Because I CAN do this in Premiere I SHOULD be able to do this in Vegas? So why can't I?" - I can't answer this in any intelligent way, other than asking you to "test" disengaging the device control in Vegas, and sending this to the DVD recorder. What you WILL need to do is put some black on the timneline so you ALREADY have a good stream flowing down the f/w. Then hit record on the DVD recorder. If that works, then great! However, if it doesn't then what I have implied above - the DVD Recorder can NOT read the steam coming from Vegas needs to be addressed. And certainly, the PTT "files" are not something you would then want to copy over to the DVD Recorder. If this IS the case then you have the option of DV>AV conversion somewhere in the stream. Which again leads me back to the schematic I badly outlined that was my attempt at delineating your present "encode" stream workflow:

Vegas Timeline > Prepare for PTT (render-encode)> Send thru f/w to DVD recorder (the all powerful "lure" of this whole thing!)> Encoding within DVD recorder > Realtime Burning to DVD platter

And here is my supposition:

Your success in Premier to do the same worked - yes?

But failure to repeat this in Vegas - yes?

I have to think that Premiere would then have been doing something to SEND a DV stream to the f/w input of the DVD Recorder, that that device a) Understood and b) Could encode using its hardware encoder.

And I think from your experience of wanting to repeat this in Vegas is firstly admirable. I understand the wish to repeat a simple exercise! But maybe this is NOT possible directly from Vegas. I said "maybe" I want to see you confirming you have disengaged the device control (basically you would then be treating the DVD Recorder as a dumb VHS tape machine!). And secondly, you may need to consider passing the stream thru a DV>AV convertor and ignoring your f/w.

And that's where I've got to with what you have said. If I have analyzed what you are saying incorrectly, I apologise immmediately. No problem. What I WANT to see is you being able to get what you want: Direct burn from the Vegas timeline via f/w to your DVD Recorder.

Oh yeah . .Very Happy New Year!

Grazie

Graham Bernard · January 1st, 2009, 03:19 AM

Ron? I have just thought of more questions.

1] How many f/w ports do you have on your PC?

2] Are they part of your MB and/or separate f/w cards?

3] Which of these are you using to send to DVD Recorder?

4] Are you using any external previewing?

Grazie

Ian Stark · January 1st, 2009, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Cooper

The project is 70 mins. long and as I said before I have already done this 3 times before with no trouble with this project.

Now, I confess to being ridiculously hungover this morning, so my powers of deduction aren't too sharp but I'm reading that Ron has already successfully done this several times before using Vegas PTT out to his DVD recorder, which is why I'm convinced the issue lies in something that has changed either in the project (eg the audio clip that was changed) or in the settings (eg, as you say, Grazie, the Device Control option).

Correct me if I'm wrong, Ron, but am I right in thinking that you've been doing this with no problem using Vegas but now it has stopped working? Or were your successful attempts all with Premiere?

By the way, you can determine the pre-rendered files location on a per project basis - look in File/Project Properties and in the Video tab you can set the location. Whether they are saved/usable after a PTT has crashed I don't know, but at least you know where to look. One other thing that occurred to me as I write this - check how much free space you have on the drive that's used for the pre-rendered files. It may be giving up because there isn't enough. Just a thought.

And I urge you to try out a PTT without that edited audio clip.

Another thing you could try is trying to PTT just a short section from the middle of your timeline, the success of which would suggest it is a dodgy clip or transition elsewhere on the timeline that Vegas isn't happy with, while if it fails it would suggest that it is a setting that's wrong, or a hardware issue, or a firewire conflict.

Graham Bernard · January 1st, 2009, 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Stark

. . but I'm reading that Ron has already successfully done this several times before using Vegas PTT out to his DVD recorder,

Well, it took me 3-re-reads, but I can't tell that this is so? What I am reading is ONLY with Premiere? It has nothing to do with your hangover. Unless that is also being piped through firewire? In which case "disengage" device control.

Grazie

Ian Stark · January 1st, 2009, 06:03 AM

Hehehe . . .

Device control was disengaged a long time ago! My wife agrees . . .

It was the "with this project" part of "already done this 3 times before with no trouble with this project" that led me to surmise that it was within Vegas.

But of course this could be the third time in my life I've been wrong ;-). My wife disagrees . . .

Ron?

Edward Troxel · January 1st, 2009, 08:02 AM

Ron, the process should work fine. We do it frequently at church too. We have the computer connected to a deck via firewire. The DVD recorder is then connected to the deck. In this way we can record both back to MiniDV tape and a DVD - both at the same time if desired. It's definitely a simple way to get the video onto DVD.

One thing you might try: When in Vegas BEFORE doing the print to tape, try turning on external preview. If that works, the PTT should work just fine as well. It sounds to me like Vegas may be having difficulties establishing the firewire connection upon the PTT.

Ron Cooper · January 1st, 2009, 08:19 AM

Wow guys, I'm, almost overwhelmed at your responses !

Now to clarify. - Yes, I have been doing this successfully in VEGAS for the last three times via PTT. - (Is there any other way for lossless !) It was just this last time that it all went pear shaped which to me was inexplicable. And YES, I did disengage device control on all occasions, as the DVD recorder does not accept this. Sorry, I did not mention this before.

With me it's all KISS ! -

PC - one firewire port on Mbd.
No external previewing on PC, only at the DVD recorder output to see what I'm doing.

Seeing it's now 1-15 AM I'm off to bed but I will try some of your other suggestions tomorrow.

Thanks to you all once again.

RonC.

Edward Troxel · January 1st, 2009, 08:32 AM

Is the firewire cable left plugged in all the time? If not, perhaps a wire got bent when plugging it in the last time?

One other good thing to try: Turn everything OFF. Then turn the computer and recorder back on in the proper sequence (hard to say which should be done first as it varies for different systems and different devices). The last time I had an issue with PTT, simply turning the deck off and back on worked.

Ron Cooper · January 1st, 2009, 04:28 PM

Thanks Edward. I will try that but I haven't moved the cable since I plugged it in the first time and I am very careful with these flimsy firewire plugs.

I also thought I can do a dummy run, IE - after Vegas has done its PTT thing and leaves you at the count down, I will leave the recorder in record pause without hitting the go button and then see if this time it starts to play through to the DVD recorder monitor after the countdown. This will fool it into thinking that all is well with the DVD rec. as firewire won't know any difference. At least I won't have to re-do the DVD after recording 5 seconds of nothing.

It's a pity that when you hit the cancel button in Vegas after you have already started, that it doesn't give you an option to start again without having to repeat the PTT Palava by having the file auto-saved. I am sure other people have experienced false starts with ancilliary equipment when using PTT. It's things like this that make a good program like Vegas a little more user friendly. Lets hope this could be addressed in future versions/updates.

RonC.

Edward Troxel · January 2nd, 2009, 07:50 AM

At least on the second print to tape you don't have to re-render everything that was rendered the first time. However, what you're doing is basically the same thing I'm doing by hitting the External Preview button and confirming the connection is good.

Ron Cooper · January 3rd, 2009, 06:42 AM

Thanks very much again Edward.
I tried your suggestion of previewing on external monitor (via firewire), and it does not seem to work, although having never attempted this before I may be missing something. Here's what I did :

In preferences /Preview Device/Device/1394-DV with output to PAL DV Widescreen.
Details Box - Hot pluggable device - Device Connected - ( so far so good), Now I played the timeline with input on DVD recorder. set to rec. pause & DV input but no result. - ?? Video plays fine from Vegas timeline within Vegas so I hit stop.

WHOA ! - As I am writing this I noticed a little monitor icon on the top left of the Vegas monitor window so I clicked it and there was a flash of the still picture on the ext. monitor where I had stopped the play back in Vegas, so I clicked it again and Voila !, it now plays on the ext. monitor. - I am completely baffled as all this should have done was to turn the thing off and on. - ??

So now, will it record out via PTT ? I did a dummy run without pressing record. It worked, no error message from Vegas. I repeated this operation & pressed record on the Vegas countdown. IT IS NOW WORKING !!

Of course for the final DVD result this will be in about an hour, but I don't think there will be any problems at the recorder's end.

What on earth could have caused all this hassle, as I have done absolutely nothing to the Vegas timeline & PTT procedure since it failed on the last attempt many days ago, yet worked flawlessly for several days before that and for three times. - Same timeline, same procedure, same ext recorder permanently plugged in. From all my previous problems it appears there was a glitch in the PTT rendering files in Vegas, BUT WHY? - Maybe like me, it just needed a rest !

RonC.

Ian Stark · January 3rd, 2009, 07:29 AM

Congrats, Ron! You got there in the end!

Edward Troxel · January 3rd, 2009, 08:51 AM

Yeah, if the Print To Tape works, the External Preview should too. Your DVD recorder may not need to be in record mode for external preview to work. I'd try it just set to DV input and see if it works. I do like confirming the firewire connection using External Preview before doing the actual PTT, though.

Ron Cooper · January 3rd, 2009, 08:36 PM

Thanks again to all of you, particularly Edward with your wealth of experience. It looks like the verification by firewire preview did the trick or at least it is another way of verification.

The result was OK but I now have to do it again because I had a fader not completely closed for a few minutes about half way through!! - Just a minor annoyance, but that is me, at least I know the reason.

Curiously now again, after thoroughly setting up the "Preview in external monitor" (via firewire & it showed device connected), it STILL DID NOT WORK, until I clicked on the little monitor icon at the top left of the Vegas monitor window. - (No mention of doing this in Vegas instructions). Once I did this & verified it was playing OK externally from the timeline, I then went back to the PTT menu and all is now working. Perhaps this extra verification & step should be in the Vegas instructions to save others all the drama and frustration I have had over this.

Case closed !!

RonC.

January 1st, 2009, 06:03 AM	#20
Ian Stark Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hampshire, UK Posts: 2,237	Hehehe . . . Device control was disengaged a long time ago! My wife agrees . . . It was the "with this project" part of "already done this 3 times before with no trouble with this project" that led me to surmise that it was within Vegas. But of course this could be the third time in my life I've been wrong ;-). My wife disagrees . . . Ron? __________________ www.vit-media.com www.classicmachinefilms.co.uk

January 1st, 2009, 08:02 AM	#21
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Ron, the process should work fine. We do it frequently at church too. We have the computer connected to a deck via firewire. The DVD recorder is then connected to the deck. In this way we can record both back to MiniDV tape and a DVD - both at the same time if desired. It's definitely a simple way to get the video onto DVD. One thing you might try: When in Vegas BEFORE doing the print to tape, try turning on external preview. If that works, the PTT should work just fine as well. It sounds to me like Vegas may be having difficulties establishing the firewire connection upon the PTT. __________________ Edward Troxel [SCVU] JETDV Scripts/Scripting Tutorials/Excalibur/Montage Magic/Newsletters

January 1st, 2009, 08:32 AM	#23
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Is the firewire cable left plugged in all the time? If not, perhaps a wire got bent when plugging it in the last time? One other good thing to try: Turn everything OFF. Then turn the computer and recorder back on in the proper sequence (hard to say which should be done first as it varies for different systems and different devices). The last time I had an issue with PTT, simply turning the deck off and back on worked. __________________ Edward Troxel [SCVU] JETDV Scripts/Scripting Tutorials/Excalibur/Montage Magic/Newsletters

January 2nd, 2009, 07:50 AM	#25
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	At least on the second print to tape you don't have to re-render everything that was rendered the first time. However, what you're doing is basically the same thing I'm doing by hitting the External Preview button and confirming the connection is good. __________________ Edward Troxel [SCVU] JETDV Scripts/Scripting Tutorials/Excalibur/Montage Magic/Newsletters

January 3rd, 2009, 07:29 AM	#27
Ian Stark Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hampshire, UK Posts: 2,237	Congrats, Ron! You got there in the end! __________________ www.vit-media.com www.classicmachinefilms.co.uk

January 1st, 2009, 03:19 AM	#17
Graham Bernard Old Boot Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: London UK Posts: 3,633	Ron? I have just thought of more questions. 1] How many f/w ports do you have on your PC? 2] Are they part of your MB and/or separate f/w cards? 3] Which of these are you using to send to DVD Recorder? 4] Are you using any external previewing? Grazie

January 1st, 2009, 08:19 AM	#22
Ron Cooper Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 481	Wow guys, I'm, almost overwhelmed at your responses ! Now to clarify. - Yes, I have been doing this successfully in VEGAS for the last three times via PTT. - (Is there any other way for lossless !) It was just this last time that it all went pear shaped which to me was inexplicable. And YES, I did disengage device control on all occasions, as the DVD recorder does not accept this. Sorry, I did not mention this before. With me it's all KISS ! - PC - one firewire port on Mbd. No external previewing on PC, only at the DVD recorder output to see what I'm doing. Seeing it's now 1-15 AM I'm off to bed but I will try some of your other suggestions tomorrow. Thanks to you all once again. RonC.

January 1st, 2009, 04:28 PM	#24
Ron Cooper Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 481	Thanks Edward. I will try that but I haven't moved the cable since I plugged it in the first time and I am very careful with these flimsy firewire plugs. I also thought I can do a dummy run, IE - after Vegas has done its PTT thing and leaves you at the count down, I will leave the recorder in record pause without hitting the go button and then see if this time it starts to play through to the DVD recorder monitor after the countdown. This will fool it into thinking that all is well with the DVD rec. as firewire won't know any difference. At least I won't have to re-do the DVD after recording 5 seconds of nothing. It's a pity that when you hit the cancel button in Vegas after you have already started, that it doesn't give you an option to start again without having to repeat the PTT Palava by having the file auto-saved. I am sure other people have experienced false starts with ancilliary equipment when using PTT. It's things like this that make a good program like Vegas a little more user friendly. Lets hope this could be addressed in future versions/updates. RonC.

January 3rd, 2009, 06:42 AM	#26
Ron Cooper Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 481	Thanks very much again Edward. I tried your suggestion of previewing on external monitor (via firewire), and it does not seem to work, although having never attempted this before I may be missing something. Here's what I did : In preferences /Preview Device/Device/1394-DV with output to PAL DV Widescreen. Details Box - Hot pluggable device - Device Connected - ( so far so good), Now I played the timeline with input on DVD recorder. set to rec. pause & DV input but no result. - ?? Video plays fine from Vegas timeline within Vegas so I hit stop. WHOA ! - As I am writing this I noticed a little monitor icon on the top left of the Vegas monitor window so I clicked it and there was a flash of the still picture on the ext. monitor where I had stopped the play back in Vegas, so I clicked it again and Voila !, it now plays on the ext. monitor. - I am completely baffled as all this should have done was to turn the thing off and on. - ?? So now, will it record out via PTT ? I did a dummy run without pressing record. It worked, no error message from Vegas. I repeated this operation & pressed record on the Vegas countdown. IT IS NOW WORKING !! Of course for the final DVD result this will be in about an hour, but I don't think there will be any problems at the recorder's end. What on earth could have caused all this hassle, as I have done absolutely nothing to the Vegas timeline & PTT procedure since it failed on the last attempt many days ago, yet worked flawlessly for several days before that and for three times. - Same timeline, same procedure, same ext recorder permanently plugged in. From all my previous problems it appears there was a glitch in the PTT rendering files in Vegas, BUT WHY? - Maybe like me, it just needed a rest ! RonC.

January 3rd, 2009, 08:51 AM	#28
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	Yeah, if the Print To Tape works, the External Preview should too. Your DVD recorder may not need to be in record mode for external preview to work. I'd try it just set to DV input and see if it works. I do like confirming the firewire connection using External Preview before doing the actual PTT, though. __________________ Edward Troxel [SCVU] JETDV Scripts/Scripting Tutorials/Excalibur/Montage Magic/Newsletters

January 3rd, 2009, 08:36 PM	#29
Ron Cooper Major Player Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 481	Thanks again to all of you, particularly Edward with your wealth of experience. It looks like the verification by firewire preview did the trick or at least it is another way of verification. The result was OK but I now have to do it again because I had a fader not completely closed for a few minutes about half way through!! - Just a minor annoyance, but that is me, at least I know the reason. Curiously now again, after thoroughly setting up the "Preview in external monitor" (via firewire & it showed device connected), it STILL DID NOT WORK, until I clicked on the little monitor icon at the top left of the Vegas monitor window. - (No mention of doing this in Vegas instructions). Once I did this & verified it was playing OK externally from the timeline, I then went back to the PTT menu and all is now working. Perhaps this extra verification & step should be in the Vegas instructions to save others all the drama and frustration I have had over this. Case closed !! RonC.