Need help with Vegas and FX1000 24p

[Tim Akin]

I can’t seem to get Vegas to remove the 2:3 pulldown from the footage of the Sony FX1000. I have the box checked in prefs to remove the pulldown, but when I go to the 24p media properties, everthing is 60i. Shouldn’t it show where it removed the 2:3 pulldown? I not sure if I’m doing something wrong, the Camera is not adding the flags or Vegas is not recognizing the 24p footage.

Any thoughts?

This is HDV 24p....tried DV 24p, same results.
Vegas 8.0b on XP2

[Chris Barcellos]

It sounds like you are expecting the capture utility to transcode at capture. As I understand it, your 24p, like mine with Canon HV20 material is laid down on a 60i stream. You still have to actually process it, to get it to a file that is 24p. Just because you drop that on a 24p timeline, or capture while a 24p project is open, doesn't mean that you will get 24p footage. You have to process that file to a new file to remove the pulldown.

With the Canon HV20, the "flags" to tell Vegas where or what to remove are not there, so I have to rely on another utility, Cineform NeoHDV to remove pulldown. It actually will do that during capture.

Vegas may be able to do it with FX1000 footage by render from the time line, assuming it can detect the proper frames.

[Jeff Harper]

Tim, to my way of thinking, and I could be wrong, but the preference setting you refer to is to "Allow pulldown removal". It doesn't say "detect 24p footage". I can see how you might expect that setting to cause Vegas to detect that the footage is 24p.

What I've done is to set the properties to 24p when starting the project.

This might be wrong, I don't know.

[Tim Akin]

Yea Jeff, this is what I do too, but when I go to the media properties, I believe it should show that the removal has taken place, but it doesn't.

Have you tried to work with FX1000 24p footage with Vegas yet?

[Jeff Harper]

Tim, Chris is correct. I looked on page 66 of our manual and it says the images are converted to 60i format when being recorded. So there ends the mystery of why Vegas doesn't detect it as 24p footage.

I also found the following on amazon, info actually from Sony : "The 24p progressive scan signals are recorded to tape as 60i through means of 2:3 pull-down. This 2:3 sequence allows HDV material to be reverted to its original 24p form, as captured by the camera, using a compatible nonlinear editor. Similarly, a 30p signal is recorded as a 60i signal by dividing each frame into two fields. This approach allows 24p and 30p progressive footage to be played back or fed to an editing suite seamlessly."

I have tried to work with the footage that I shot at church the other day. The default settings for 24p with this camera are useless as they are. Motion is choppy, and pans have to be made extremely slowly to avoid choppiness and blurring.

First, I should say that 24p for me is relatively unimportant, but I want to learn to use it properly so that I can use it if I choose.

The shutter speed is automatically changed to 48 on my cam, which seems to be the cause of the choppiness. I left it as it was for the whole church service because I wanted to give a go for one entire event with the default settings.

I now know next time shutter speed needs to be put back to 60, but does that somehow defeat the purpose of the 24p setting? I don't know.

I'm going to hope more specific info come through this board on using the 24p feature properly.

[Chris Barcellos]

Jeff:

1. 1/48 approximates a 180 degree shutter on a film camera, which is a common shooting setting. It is usually the best setting for shooting 24p, similar to using standard 1/60th for 30 FPS (60I) Shooting lower can actually reduce resolution, and shooting higher can actually add to the stutter and judder.

2. The 1/60th and 1/48th provide enough motion blur that the frames blend good together. If you shoot at a higher shutter speed, you start to add to choppiness. Some films do that on purpose- like the Private Ryan Normandy landing and other battle scenes.

3. Motion pictures films are shot at 24 frames per second, and the reason we use it is to try to give that film feel to your video. The judder that comes with it can sometimes be seen in films that have been made for many years.

4. As I said earlier any HDV 24p, is recorded in a 60i stream, and getting your footage actually processed to true 24p before editing will help you deal with the judder issues more effectively.

[Jeff Harper]

Chris thanks for the 24p primer!

Does the fact that the 24p footage from the FX1000 is recorded as 60i mean it is not true 24p?

I thought I had read before that the FX1000 does a decent job in 24p, but that it is still not true 24p.

How can it be processed at 24p before editing? I have Ultimate S, which does have a 24p process I've not used.

Edit: Chris I'm rendering out with ultimate s to 24p to see what happens.

[Chris Barcellos]

I will answer this way. If you have a 24p film on a DVD, the DVD player has to add pulldown so it can be played on a 60i TV. It still shows the 24p film, with the 24p feel. That does not mean it is not true 24p. When you record in Sony or Canon 24p, you are recording true 24 progressive frames of video per second. However, since it has to be fit into the HDV conforming "legal" format 60 interlaced frames per second, pull down is added. Don't ask me exactly how its done, thats a long discussion, but the point is that pull down, if flagged properly, can be removed, by many NLEs, and even improperly flagged 24p (such as with HV20) can have pull down removed by programs like Cineform that have been designed to detect proper pull down removal sequences. The remaining frames are the true 24 fps progressive frames.

If you haven't tried Cineform, download their trial, and capture with HD link with pulldown removal

[Jeff Harper]

I will try out Cineform. I imagine Ultimate S 24p conversion process is much different than Cineform's.

BTW, that was an exceptional explanation of the 24p process as it applies here. Thank you.

[Tim Akin]

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

but the point is that pull down, if flagged properly, can be removed, by many NLEs,

Thanks Chris, so isn't Vegas one of these NLE's?

[Tim Akin]

Jeff, have you tried to capture 24p with Vegas?

[Jeff Harper]

Yes, I did capture footage that was 24p, but I still had to set the properties to 24p. Where are you looking to see that the pulldown removal has been accomplished? In the properties area?

Your question is a good one about Vegas and whether it recognizes the pulldown removal flags. I wonder if Ultimate S 24p conversion accomplishes this with Vegas or if Cineform is the only way for us as Vegas users to achieve the pulldown removal?

[Tim Akin]

Yes, in the media properties. I think it should show "Format" MPEG-2 (with 2:3 pulldown). Also it should show "frame rate" 23.976, "Field Order" progressive.

I watched a tutorial on this not to long ago, I'll try to find the link.

Edit: Jeff, when you say it's choppy and not smooth, is that on the Vegas timeline? If it is, I think it will be choppy if Vegas has not removed the pulldown and your project properties are set for 24p 23.976.

[Jeff Harper]

Actually as far as the choppiness is concerned it was choppy in the viewfinder...really bad on pans and with and dramatic motion by the subjects, even some not so dramatic movement by subject has noticeable choppiness.

As it is, it is not too useable for me. While I wanted the ability to do this, I'm not too hung up on it. For weddings it is definitely not something I will use, nor did I ever expect to use it for weddings, though I had hoped it was a possibility.

[Tim Akin]

I think shooting 24p has a whole new learning curve to it.....slower pans etc. But, once mastered, the look is very pleasing. I wish I could judge this for myself. This was one capability of the 1000 I was looking forward to experimenting with.