Need help with Vegas and FX1000 24p

Chris Barcellos · December 27th, 2008, 02:56 AM

Jeff and Tim:

I am using the FX1, and its Cineframe 24. It got a bad rap for not looking quite right for the film makers, but I have been using it with Cineform to get some results. Here is a clip I did today, testing it out with a 35mm adapter:

http://www.makeyourfilm.net/downloads/Adapterand24p.mp4

I am hoping the FX1000 24p will take it to a better level, if I get one some day.

Jeff Harper · December 27th, 2008, 04:49 AM

I like it Chris. Has a REALLY nice look. It had me interested enought to want to hear the audio. Really great documentary feel you have going there.

Here is a wmv clip (144 MB) of portions of a Christmas concert. It was shot using FX-1000 with the Cinema Tone #1 preset and 24p, though as you know the footage has not been converted to progressive.

I like the look of that preset.

I am stone in love with the zoom of the camera.

The clips ends with scene of church with absolutely no lights but that from the candles the people are holding.

I should also remark that the onboard audio is quite good, IMO.

To play the clip you will need to Right click and save the clip, don't attempt to play directly from link as file is too large. After file is done downloading then play.

http://jeffharpervideo.com/Videos/wmv/ChurchDemo.wmv

Tim Akin · December 27th, 2008, 08:06 AM

Sorry guys, my DSL is to slow to view your clips.

I did contact Sony via email a few days ago about the 24p of the FX1000 and Vegas issue.....maybe I'll here back this year :)

Jeff, last night at the rehearsal, I used the HDV 30p mode of the 1000. It looks pretty good, no where near as jerky as the 24p. I may use it today at the wedding. I guess that will be a last minute decision, 60i or 30p.

Some say it's better to deinterlace 60i in post and others say it's better to shoot native progressive, I personaly do not know. You can do all the test you want at home, but untill you do it out in the field and complete the project, set back and look at it, you really cannot know.

Jeff Harper · December 27th, 2008, 08:20 AM

Tim, to download the clips you should right click on them and save them. If you left click to play off of the links the won't play properly as the files are too large.

That's an idea you have with the 30p. I will shoot my next church event with that and see how it works out...thanks for the idea Tim.

Chris Barcellos · December 27th, 2008, 01:01 PM

Jeff I commented on the Church clip, on the other thread, but the shots actually do exhibit the 24p feel. Remember, just because pulldown is added to make it playable as a 60i HDV stream, does not mean it is actually changing the 24p cadence. It will still be there. We remove pulldown to facilitate editing and avoid some problems that can possibly occur in transitions, etc.

In the hand held crowd shot, you can also see some skewing from the rolling shutter, especially on the faster pans, but I thought feel of 24p was nice along with preset you chose.

Jeff Harper · December 27th, 2008, 02:50 PM

Thanks for the feedback Chris. Yes on the handheld I was holding camera over my head and arm got tired so I lost control somewhat.

Thanks for clearing up that the video still maintains the 24p characteristics, I still am grappling with understanding the whole thing, but thanks to you it is gradually becoming clearer, I think!

Jeff Harper · December 27th, 2008, 05:18 PM

Tim, I read the Wikepidia article on 24p and it it very enlightening and confirms much of what we are learning about this subject.

24p - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Chris has covered this subject with us extremely well and accurately based on what I've read.

The article even mentions 30p vs 24p, so you are really on to something there!

Tim Akin · December 28th, 2008, 11:04 AM

Thanks Jeff, good read indeed. Your right, we owe Chris for explaining all this so well.

Well I shoot yesterday's wedding entirely in 30p. Shutter speed 60 for the ceremony and first part of the reception, untill the lights went off, then I switced to 30 shutter speed. I'll be sure and let you know how it turns out.

Jeff Harper · December 28th, 2008, 06:16 PM

Yes Tim that will be VERY interesting.

Tim Akin · December 29th, 2008, 12:51 PM

This is the response I recieved from Sony support:

Hi Tim,

Thank you for contacting Sony Creative Software. Pulldown is the conversion of 24 fps footage to 30 fps. Adding pulldown would mean that you are converting the 24p footage to 30i.

However, in referring to the camera's specs, I see the following notes:

"In addition to 1080/60i recording, the HDR-FX1000 offers a 1080/24p and 1080/30p Progressive Scan mode that enables shooting with film-like results. Signals scanned at 24p/30p are converted to 60i (using 2-3 pulldown for 24p) and recorded on MiniDV tape, allowing footage to be played and edited using existing HDV products. In this way, progressive images can be handled in the conventional HDV editing environment."

HDR-FX1000 | HDR-FX1000 High Definition MiniDV (HDV) Handycam® Camcorder | Sony | SonyStyle USA

This would suggest that the pulldown is actually happening in the camera and not during capture or import.

December 27th, 2008, 02:56 AM	#31
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Jeff and Tim: I am using the FX1, and its Cineframe 24. It got a bad rap for not looking quite right for the film makers, but I have been using it with Cineform to get some results. Here is a clip I did today, testing it out with a 35mm adapter: http://www.makeyourfilm.net/downloads/Adapterand24p.mp4 I am hoping the FX1000 24p will take it to a better level, if I get one some day. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

December 27th, 2008, 04:49 AM	#32
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	I like it Chris. Has a REALLY nice look. It had me interested enought to want to hear the audio. Really great documentary feel you have going there. Here is a wmv clip (144 MB) of portions of a Christmas concert. It was shot using FX-1000 with the Cinema Tone #1 preset and 24p, though as you know the footage has not been converted to progressive. I like the look of that preset. I am stone in love with the zoom of the camera. The clips ends with scene of church with absolutely no lights but that from the candles the people are holding. I should also remark that the onboard audio is quite good, IMO. To play the clip you will need to Right click and save the clip, don't attempt to play directly from link as file is too large. After file is done downloading then play. http://jeffharpervideo.com/Videos/wmv/ChurchDemo.wmv Last edited by Jeff Harper; December 27th, 2008 at 08:24 AM.

December 27th, 2008, 01:01 PM	#35
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Jeff I commented on the Church clip, on the other thread, but the shots actually do exhibit the 24p feel. Remember, just because pulldown is added to make it playable as a 60i HDV stream, does not mean it is actually changing the 24p cadence. It will still be there. We remove pulldown to facilitate editing and avoid some problems that can possibly occur in transitions, etc. In the hand held crowd shot, you can also see some skewing from the rolling shutter, especially on the faster pans, but I thought feel of 24p was nice along with preset you chose. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

December 27th, 2008, 05:18 PM	#37
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Tim, I read the Wikepidia article on 24p and it it very enlightening and confirms much of what we are learning about this subject. 24p - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Chris has covered this subject with us extremely well and accurately based on what I've read. The article even mentions 30p vs 24p, so you are really on to something there! Last edited by Jeff Harper; December 28th, 2008 at 12:29 AM.

December 27th, 2008, 08:06 AM	#33
Tim Akin Major Player Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Newbern, TN Posts: 414	Sorry guys, my DSL is to slow to view your clips. I did contact Sony via email a few days ago about the 24p of the FX1000 and Vegas issue.....maybe I'll here back this year :) Jeff, last night at the rehearsal, I used the HDV 30p mode of the 1000. It looks pretty good, no where near as jerky as the 24p. I may use it today at the wedding. I guess that will be a last minute decision, 60i or 30p. Some say it's better to deinterlace 60i in post and others say it's better to shoot native progressive, I personaly do not know. You can do all the test you want at home, but untill you do it out in the field and complete the project, set back and look at it, you really cannot know.

December 27th, 2008, 08:20 AM	#34
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Tim, to download the clips you should right click on them and save them. If you left click to play off of the links the won't play properly as the files are too large. That's an idea you have with the 30p. I will shoot my next church event with that and see how it works out...thanks for the idea Tim.

December 27th, 2008, 02:50 PM	#36
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Thanks for the feedback Chris. Yes on the handheld I was holding camera over my head and arm got tired so I lost control somewhat. Thanks for clearing up that the video still maintains the 24p characteristics, I still am grappling with understanding the whole thing, but thanks to you it is gradually becoming clearer, I think!

December 28th, 2008, 11:04 AM	#38
Tim Akin Major Player Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Newbern, TN Posts: 414	Thanks Jeff, good read indeed. Your right, we owe Chris for explaining all this so well. Well I shoot yesterday's wedding entirely in 30p. Shutter speed 60 for the ceremony and first part of the reception, untill the lights went off, then I switced to 30 shutter speed. I'll be sure and let you know how it turns out.

December 28th, 2008, 06:16 PM	#39
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Yes Tim that will be VERY interesting.

December 29th, 2008, 12:51 PM	#40
Tim Akin Major Player Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Newbern, TN Posts: 414	This is the response I recieved from Sony support: Hi Tim, Thank you for contacting Sony Creative Software. Pulldown is the conversion of 24 fps footage to 30 fps. Adding pulldown would mean that you are converting the 24p footage to 30i. However, in referring to the camera's specs, I see the following notes: "In addition to 1080/60i recording, the HDR-FX1000 offers a 1080/24p and 1080/30p Progressive Scan mode that enables shooting with film-like results. Signals scanned at 24p/30p are converted to 60i (using 2-3 pulldown for 24p) and recorded on MiniDV tape, allowing footage to be played and edited using existing HDV products. In this way, progressive images can be handled in the conventional HDV editing environment." HDR-FX1000 \| HDR-FX1000 High Definition MiniDV (HDV) Handycam® Camcorder \| Sony \| SonyStyle USA This would suggest that the pulldown is actually happening in the camera and not during capture or import.