Need help with Vegas and FX1000 24p

Chris Barcellos · December 26th, 2008, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Akin

Thanks Chris, so isn't Vegas one of these NLE's?

Haven't figured that one out yet. Haven't seen any Vegas discussions.

Here is a link to Cineform that give you an idea how different cameras work. You can make deductions about different cameras from that.

HDLink Capture Settings

Looking at the Z7U, it looks like it does record a straight 24p file without adding pulldown. I assume that is because you can use it with the supplied CF recorder. The Z5 may do the same, and I wonder if by buying the CF recorder, you could do the same with your FX1000. I read somewhere that if you actually tape, pull down has to be added to transfer by firewire to meet HDV capture convention requirements.

You guys are the actual ground breakers here, as that camera is real new....

If you have somewhere to upload an m2t raw file shot in 24p that I can play with, I would see what I could do with it in Vegas and with Cineform.

Tim Akin · December 26th, 2008, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

If you have somewhere to upload an m2t raw file shot in 24p that I can play with, I would see what I could do with it in Vegas and with Cineform.

Well I don't, but would a few seconds of footage be to large for email?

Jeff Harper · December 26th, 2008, 02:49 PM

My smallest clip recorded in 24p with the FX1000 is 500mb. If I can post it (not for sure my server will accept clip that large) could you download it?

If you can/will I will try to post it.

Edit: Chris, my idea is ridiculous...way too large of a file. I'll try and find time to download a partial clip later and see if you're stiil interested in playing with it...thx, Jeff

Chris Barcellos · December 26th, 2008, 03:26 PM

This site has a free upload and download service, or at least it was free last time I looked. It is a bit of a pain to down load from, but for single situation like this, it could be fine. I have pretty fast download capability, so if you are game, I am.
You could send me the link by PM.

MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service

Jeff Harper · December 26th, 2008, 04:11 PM

Ok, I'll check out the site!

Chris Barcellos · December 26th, 2008, 06:51 PM

Tim provided a small file for me to play with. Not much motion in it to check out the judder issues. Would be nice to have one with a bit more motion.

I am uploading two frame grabs showing difference from rendering the Vegas time line to an intermediate Cineform .avi file, the other from doing a direct conversion in HDLink of the file sent by Tim. It looks to me like rendering out to 24p in Vegas loses resolution, suggesting that Vegas does not really perform a pulldown removal, like Cineform does, but you be the judge.

Tim Akin · December 26th, 2008, 07:18 PM

Thanks Chris, sorry about the non-motion clip, smallest size I had. What about the media properties of that clip in Vegas, does it show the 2:3 pulldown?

Chris Barcellos · December 26th, 2008, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Akin

Thanks Chris, sorry about the non-motion clip, smallest size I had. What about the media properties of that clip in Vegas, does it show the 2:3 pulldown?

No, it doesn't, and that is true of any 24p hdv file that I have worked with. The editor sees it as 29.97 HDV, because thats what it has to look like. The pulldown is intentionally added to make it look and work like HDV 29.97.

Tim Akin · December 26th, 2008, 07:50 PM

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm just trying to understand this. I also tried DV 24p and it also doesn't show the pulldown removal in Vegas....should it?

Chris Barcellos · December 26th, 2008, 10:30 PM

Tim:

I actually never worked with SD DV 24p, which is what I assume you mean, having gotten into the 24p stuff in HDV. If I wanted to go 24p with my HDV cameras, I would still shoot HDV, convert, and then down rez in the edit. However, I understand that works along same lines, ie, that the pulldown can be removed in SD.

So we are on same page, when you 24p footage is in a 29.97 file, it still is supposed to look and act like 24p. Its just in that container with the added pulldown to facilitate playing on standard video. The reason we want to remove pull down is to allow us to avoid the problems that the added pulldown presents when we have to do transitions, color correcting, and otherwise cut the film.

This link is a great primer on this story:

Pulldown (a.k.a. 3:2 Pulldown) | Moviola ? Training for Avid, Apple & Adobe | Production & Post Production Rentals & Sales | Los Angeles, Hollywood, Burbank

Tim Akin · December 26th, 2008, 10:53 PM

Thanks for the good explaination Chris. The reason for starting this thread was to make sure the FX1000 was doing what it was supposed to be doing in 24p....inserting flags. When I captured some 24p footage, opened a 24p project and the 24p media didn't show the pulldown like the "video primer tutorial" (the link I posted) I started to wonder what was going on. Especially when the 24p footage looked really jerky on the timeline. I went ahead an rendered the stuttering 24p thinking it might look better when played back on DVD, but it didn't.

Jeff Harper · December 27th, 2008, 01:07 AM

That jerkiness, etc., is something I saw in the viewfinder when I used the 24p settings Tim. I feel there must be a setting that should be changed, but I can't imagine what it would be.

Chris that large file won't even begin to upload to my host provider. I'm reluctant to sign up for the site you linked to, I hate to give my e-mail out to them due to possible spam that could result.

Jeff Harper · December 27th, 2008, 02:02 AM

Tim, I see what you mean after watching the Vegas 24p tutorial.

It shows that after downloading footage that was recorded 24p, the clip properties (from within Vegas) should show progressive mode.

Just as you experienced, the footage I shot did not show up that way in Vegas.

Chris Barcellos · December 27th, 2008, 02:20 AM

I think the point there is that Vegas hasn't been updated to detect this camera's 24p, or it will have to be done with something like Cineform. In fact, I took Tim's clip, and converted it with Cineform, and it reported it as 24p after that in Vegas.

However, despite the fact that Vegas doesn't detect it, doesn't mean it is not there. You can still edit on a 29.97 time line.

Are you guys trying to add pull down in your renders ? That may be a problem.

Anyways, here is a link to a 24p file to give you a feel how it should look approximately. There is some jerkiness, as is standard for 24p.. Right click and save target as to down load, please.

http://www.makeyourfilm.net/downloads/24pTest.mp4

Jeff Harper · December 27th, 2008, 02:25 AM

Chris, I wondered if the issue Tim alluded to might have to do with Vegas not yet being updated to handle m3t files that are 24p they way it might for SD 24p. It makes sense.

Your footage has a nice film look to it. I see the jerkiness you mention, and it is pretty much the same as what I have experienced with my cam.

It is clear that you have been studying/working with this issue for a while. Sadly, I cannot see purchasing Cineform. 24p would be strictly for fun for me, as I cannot see using it for weddings. Possibly corporate stuff, but the effect would not even be close to worth the cost from a business point of view.

I'm going to render out a wmv clip of my church footage and post, just for kicks.

December 26th, 2008, 03:26 PM	#19
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	This site has a free upload and download service, or at least it was free last time I looked. It is a bit of a pain to down load from, but for single situation like this, it could be fine. I have pretty fast download capability, so if you are game, I am. You could send me the link by PM. MEGAUPLOAD - The leading online storage and file delivery service __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

December 26th, 2008, 06:51 PM	#21
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Compare grabs from two render methods Tim provided a small file for me to play with. Not much motion in it to check out the judder issues. Would be nice to have one with a bit more motion. I am uploading two frame grabs showing difference from rendering the Vegas time line to an intermediate Cineform .avi file, the other from doing a direct conversion in HDLink of the file sent by Tim. It looks to me like rendering out to 24p in Vegas loses resolution, suggesting that Vegas does not really perform a pulldown removal, like Cineform does, but you be the judge. Attached Thumbnails __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

December 26th, 2008, 10:30 PM	#25
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Tim: I actually never worked with SD DV 24p, which is what I assume you mean, having gotten into the 24p stuff in HDV. If I wanted to go 24p with my HDV cameras, I would still shoot HDV, convert, and then down rez in the edit. However, I understand that works along same lines, ie, that the pulldown can be removed in SD. So we are on same page, when you 24p footage is in a 29.97 file, it still is supposed to look and act like 24p. Its just in that container with the added pulldown to facilitate playing on standard video. The reason we want to remove pull down is to allow us to avoid the problems that the added pulldown presents when we have to do transitions, color correcting, and otherwise cut the film. This link is a great primer on this story: Pulldown (a.k.a. 3:2 Pulldown) \| Moviola ? Training for Avid, Apple & Adobe \| Production & Post Production Rentals & Sales \| Los Angeles, Hollywood, Burbank __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

December 27th, 2008, 02:20 AM	#29
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	I think the point there is that Vegas hasn't been updated to detect this camera's 24p, or it will have to be done with something like Cineform. In fact, I took Tim's clip, and converted it with Cineform, and it reported it as 24p after that in Vegas. However, despite the fact that Vegas doesn't detect it, doesn't mean it is not there. You can still edit on a 29.97 time line. Are you guys trying to add pull down in your renders ? That may be a problem. Anyways, here is a link to a 24p file to give you a feel how it should look approximately. There is some jerkiness, as is standard for 24p.. Right click and save target as to down load, please. http://www.makeyourfilm.net/downloads/24pTest.mp4 __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

December 26th, 2008, 02:49 PM	#18
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	My smallest clip recorded in 24p with the FX1000 is 500mb. If I can post it (not for sure my server will accept clip that large) could you download it? If you can/will I will try to post it. Edit: Chris, my idea is ridiculous...way too large of a file. I'll try and find time to download a partial clip later and see if you're stiil interested in playing with it...thx, Jeff

December 26th, 2008, 04:11 PM	#20
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Ok, I'll check out the site!

December 26th, 2008, 07:18 PM	#22
Tim Akin Major Player Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Newbern, TN Posts: 414	Thanks Chris, sorry about the non-motion clip, smallest size I had. What about the media properties of that clip in Vegas, does it show the 2:3 pulldown?

December 26th, 2008, 07:50 PM	#24
Tim Akin Major Player Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Newbern, TN Posts: 414	Sorry for all the questions, but I'm just trying to understand this. I also tried DV 24p and it also doesn't show the pulldown removal in Vegas....should it?

December 26th, 2008, 10:53 PM	#26
Tim Akin Major Player Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Newbern, TN Posts: 414	Thanks for the good explaination Chris. The reason for starting this thread was to make sure the FX1000 was doing what it was supposed to be doing in 24p....inserting flags. When I captured some 24p footage, opened a 24p project and the 24p media didn't show the pulldown like the "video primer tutorial" (the link I posted) I started to wonder what was going on. Especially when the 24p footage looked really jerky on the timeline. I went ahead an rendered the stuttering 24p thinking it might look better when played back on DVD, but it didn't.

December 27th, 2008, 01:07 AM	#27
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	That jerkiness, etc., is something I saw in the viewfinder when I used the 24p settings Tim. I feel there must be a setting that should be changed, but I can't imagine what it would be. Chris that large file won't even begin to upload to my host provider. I'm reluctant to sign up for the site you linked to, I hate to give my e-mail out to them due to possible spam that could result.

December 27th, 2008, 02:02 AM	#28
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Tim, I see what you mean after watching the Vegas 24p tutorial. It shows that after downloading footage that was recorded 24p, the clip properties (from within Vegas) should show progressive mode. Just as you experienced, the footage I shot did not show up that way in Vegas.

December 27th, 2008, 02:25 AM	#30
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Chris, I wondered if the issue Tim alluded to might have to do with Vegas not yet being updated to handle m3t files that are 24p they way it might for SD 24p. It makes sense. Your footage has a nice film look to it. I see the jerkiness you mention, and it is pretty much the same as what I have experienced with my cam. It is clear that you have been studying/working with this issue for a while. Sadly, I cannot see purchasing Cineform. 24p would be strictly for fun for me, as I cannot see using it for weddings. Possibly corporate stuff, but the effect would not even be close to worth the cost from a business point of view. I'm going to render out a wmv clip of my church footage and post, just for kicks.