Question - In 32-bit mode, black levels don't appear correct on DVD at DVinfo.net

James Binder · August 25th, 2008, 03:13 PM

Here's my project settings:

NTSC DV 24p widescreen
Pixel format: 32 bit
Gamma: 1.000

Footage:

.mxf files (From Sony EX1)
35 mb/s
1920X1080

Output: (DVD)

MainConcept MPEG-2 (DVD Architect 24p NTSC Widescreen video stream)

When I compare the DVD (via a DVD player) to the original footage (within Vegas 8) on the same monitor, the footage looks as if the black levels have been raised (on the DVD). I've read many threads on the subject here and am thoroughly confused. Glenn's article is wonderful, but I'm not sure that I understand all of the jargon.

In my 32 bit mode project, I've used lots of color correction and levels adjustment throughout. I've experimented with the studio RGB to computer RGB, but not sure when and where I should apply.

If I import the mpeg2 file back into Vegas and bring into a 8 bit project -- the blacks are clearly raised compared to the 32 bit project. If I switch to 32 bit mode all appears right again (with the mpeg2 file). However the DVD appears (on other television sets) to have the appearance of the mpeg2 file in an 8 bit project -- with the black levels raised.

Can somebody tell me in plain language what I need to do so that the black levels appear the same on the DVD as they do within my Vegas 8 project?

Thanks in advance --

Jeff Harper · August 25th, 2008, 07:04 PM

James, have you tried playing it on a television yet?

James Binder · August 25th, 2008, 09:20 PM

Jeff --

Yes it looks the same on a TV. The black levels are still off -- actually, it appears that the luma is being raised altogether, which of course is affecting the black levels as well.

Again, I think the issue is because I'm using .mxf files which do something weird in 32 bit mode when rendered. If anybody can set me straight here, I'd appreciate it.

Jeff Harper · August 26th, 2008, 02:06 AM

Sorry James, I did not read your post thoroughly...I see now you had watched it on televisions....

Rob Wood · August 26th, 2008, 08:08 AM

From what I'm reading I think your MXF is decoding to computer RGB levels... in that case I'd suggest putting a Computer RGB to Studio RGB filter on the Video Output FX track just before rendering to MPEG-2 to draw everything back into range.

Caveat: I'm not sure about this; I still get mixed up regarding 32bit / codecs / colorspace in Vegas with HDV formats.

Note: I referenced DSE's Vegas8 book and noticed he had a couple solutions on the topic, one of which is to nest your 32-bit 1.0 gamma project into a 32bit 2.222 gamma project.

Bill Ravens · August 26th, 2008, 08:28 AM

James...

I've been around and around on this issue until I finally gave up. Glenn tried to explain it to me but I still don't get what's happening, myself. I think the best workaround, at this point in time, is to do what was suggested by Rob Wood...drop a Computer to Studio RGB filter on the timeline. If that doesn't work, reverse the filter. And, DON"T pay attention to what you see on the Vegas Preview Window...it's not right.

Jeff Harper · August 26th, 2008, 08:32 AM

Not that this will help at this point James, but referring to Bill's reference to Vegas preview window, I am so glad I finally broke down and bought a broadcast monitor...I get a much better idea of the end result without having to render, burn, and test on televisions.

Paul Kepen · September 23rd, 2008, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Wood

From what I'm reading I think your MXF is decoding to computer RGB levels... in that case I'd suggest putting a Computer RGB to Studio RGB filter on the Video Output FX track just before rendering to MPEG-2 to draw everything back into range.

Caveat: I'm not sure about this; I still get mixed up regarding 32bit / codecs / colorspace in Vegas with HDV formats.

Note: I referenced DSE's Vegas8 book and noticed he had a couple solutions on the topic, one of which is to nest your 32-bit 1.0 gamma project into a 32bit 2.222 gamma project.

I am having a similar (but almost the opposite) problems with V8. When I use the standard 8bit mode, the resultant rendered files are over all too dark, but the highlights are 'blown out." I've been trying the 32bit mode. This seems to solve the dark image, but bright sunny highlights are still blown out. The same file rendered with Premiere Pro 1.5 looks slightly richer and no overblown highlights. Previously I used Vegas 6 and I did not have this problem. Someone said there are many references to this problem here, but I have not found the specific solution. I was hoping that by upgrading to V 8.0C that Sony would have fixed this, but no such luck. My Project settings are : Pixel Format: 32 bit floating point, Compositing Gamma 1.00 (linear).
Also, I've looked, but in my Vegas 8 Video Plugin Chooses (FX), I do not see any "Computer RGB to Studio RGB" plugins. How do I get that? Thanks for the help. Sincerely - PK

Mike Kujbida · September 23rd, 2008, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Kepen

Also, I've looked, but in my Vegas 8 Video Plugin Chooses (FX), I do not see any "Computer RGB to Studio RGB" plugins. How do I get that? Thanks for the help. Sincerely - PK

It's a dropdown template in the Secondary Color Corrector.

Paul Kepen · September 23rd, 2008, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Kujbida

It's a dropdown template in the Secondary Color Corrector.

Thanks for the Info Mike :)

Mike Kujbida · September 23rd, 2008, 07:41 PM

I know that James said tell me in plain language but, if you want some explanations in not-so-plain language, check out the 32 floating bit and 32bit float vs 8 bit threads.
Make sure you have some aspirin (or a good stiff drink) available for the way they'll make your head ache :-)

p.s.you're welcome Paul

Bill Ravens · September 23rd, 2008, 07:54 PM

In Vegas' 32 bit FP mode, all signals input in YUV will be converted to broadcast RGB standards. All RGB signals input will be left unchanged. So, if you have a YUV signal in which black is RGB 16, black will be automatically raised to RGB 32.

The "fix" is as was mentioned above. Apply a broadcast to computer RGB correction.

Paul Kepen · September 23rd, 2008, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Kujbida

I know that James said tell me in plain language but, if you want some explanations in not-so-plain language, check out the 32 floating bit and 32bit float vs 8 bit threads.
Make sure you have some aspirin (or a good stiff drink) available for the way they'll make your head ache :-)

p.s.you're welcome Paul

Thanks Mike, I will have to check these threads out tomorrow - bed time now. I still don't really comprehend why this was never a problem with V6, nor is it with PremierePro which is 10 bit. Yes, I know that V8 has 32 bit, but my initial problem was rendering HDV at 8 bit with V8. I capture to Cineform Prospect with Premiere (My original Cineform purchase was a bundle with PPro). From there I open the CFHD.avi files with Vegas - my preferred NLE. However, I am not happy that my projects in Vegas 8 (8 bit or 32 bit) don't render out with a normal tonal range. Hopefully these little tricks will solve my problems. Again, I really do appreciate the help.
Have a goodnight - Paul

Steven Thomas · September 26th, 2008, 07:56 AM

All I can say is good luck Paul.

As much as I like using Vegas, as you found out, it's really messed up with these colorspace/levels issues. I am blown away Sony has done NOTHING to fix this.

Paul Kepen · September 26th, 2008, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Thomas

All I can say is good luck Paul.

As much as I like using Vegas, as you found out, it's really messed up with these colorspace/levels issues. I am blown away Sony has done NOTHING to fix this.

I couldn't agree with you more Steve. I am seriously considering upgrading my 3 year old Adobe Suite and dumping Vegas. I never upgraded my PPro 1.5 because it worked, and because after I learned Vegas, I preferred it and have stuck with it. However the faster workflow with Vegas is more then negated by the difficulty of this color space issue. I waste more time rendering and burning coasters by far. Hence, I'm now beginning to think that the Adobe package would be far, far less time consuming overall.
If just using the Computer RGB to Studio RGB pluggin on the timeline FX worked, I'd say fine. However, it seems to dim the overblown highlights but still does not return the detail in those blown out highlights. Also, this pluggin makes clips that don't have bright sunny highlights too dark. When I render those same clips with my 3 year old PPro 1.5, the detail is still there in those same highlights. I am using the latest Vegas 8.0 c. There is a Vegas 8.1, but that is for Vista 64bit, I am still on Win XP pro, hence I've stuck with the 32 bit version. As you say, its unbeleivable that Sony has not addressed this - its more important then there effort to push out a 64bit version. By the way, does anyone know if the same issue is in the 64 bit version? I would assume it it the same.

August 25th, 2008, 03:13 PM	#1
James Binder Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: NY, NYC Posts: 367	Question - In 32-bit mode, black levels don't appear correct on DVD Here's my project settings: NTSC DV 24p widescreen Pixel format: 32 bit Gamma: 1.000 Footage: .mxf files (From Sony EX1) 35 mb/s 1920X1080 Output: (DVD) MainConcept MPEG-2 (DVD Architect 24p NTSC Widescreen video stream) When I compare the DVD (via a DVD player) to the original footage (within Vegas 8) on the same monitor, the footage looks as if the black levels have been raised (on the DVD). I've read many threads on the subject here and am thoroughly confused. Glenn's article is wonderful, but I'm not sure that I understand all of the jargon. In my 32 bit mode project, I've used lots of color correction and levels adjustment throughout. I've experimented with the studio RGB to computer RGB, but not sure when and where I should apply. If I import the mpeg2 file back into Vegas and bring into a 8 bit project -- the blacks are clearly raised compared to the 32 bit project. If I switch to 32 bit mode all appears right again (with the mpeg2 file). However the DVD appears (on other television sets) to have the appearance of the mpeg2 file in an 8 bit project -- with the black levels raised. Can somebody tell me in plain language what I need to do so that the black levels appear the same on the DVD as they do within my Vegas 8 project? Thanks in advance --

August 25th, 2008, 07:04 PM	#2
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	James, have you tried playing it on a television yet? Last edited by Jeff Harper; August 26th, 2008 at 02:03 AM.

August 25th, 2008, 09:20 PM	#3
James Binder Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: NY, NYC Posts: 367	Jeff -- Yes it looks the same on a TV. The black levels are still off -- actually, it appears that the luma is being raised altogether, which of course is affecting the black levels as well. Again, I think the issue is because I'm using .mxf files which do something weird in 32 bit mode when rendered. If anybody can set me straight here, I'd appreciate it. Last edited by James Binder; August 25th, 2008 at 10:56 PM.

August 26th, 2008, 08:08 AM	#5
Rob Wood Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 146	From what I'm reading I think your MXF is decoding to computer RGB levels... in that case I'd suggest putting a Computer RGB to Studio RGB filter on the Video Output FX track just before rendering to MPEG-2 to draw everything back into range. Caveat: I'm not sure about this; I still get mixed up regarding 32bit / codecs / colorspace in Vegas with HDV formats. Note: I referenced DSE's Vegas8 book and noticed he had a couple solutions on the topic, one of which is to nest your 32-bit 1.0 gamma project into a 32bit 2.222 gamma project. Last edited by Rob Wood; August 26th, 2008 at 08:36 AM. Reason: second thoughts

August 26th, 2008, 02:06 AM	#4
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Sorry James, I did not read your post thoroughly...I see now you had watched it on televisions....

August 26th, 2008, 08:28 AM	#6
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	James... I've been around and around on this issue until I finally gave up. Glenn tried to explain it to me but I still don't get what's happening, myself. I think the best workaround, at this point in time, is to do what was suggested by Rob Wood...drop a Computer to Studio RGB filter on the timeline. If that doesn't work, reverse the filter. And, DON"T pay attention to what you see on the Vegas Preview Window...it's not right.

August 26th, 2008, 08:32 AM	#7
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Not that this will help at this point James, but referring to Bill's reference to Vegas preview window, I am so glad I finally broke down and bought a broadcast monitor...I get a much better idea of the end result without having to render, burn, and test on televisions.

September 23rd, 2008, 07:41 PM	#11
Mike Kujbida Inner Circle Join Date: May 2005 Location: Windsor, ON Canada Posts: 2,770	I know that James said tell me in plain language but, if you want some explanations in not-so-plain language, check out the 32 floating bit and 32bit float vs 8 bit threads. Make sure you have some aspirin (or a good stiff drink) available for the way they'll make your head ache :-) p.s.you're welcome Paul

September 23rd, 2008, 07:54 PM	#12
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	In Vegas' 32 bit FP mode, all signals input in YUV will be converted to broadcast RGB standards. All RGB signals input will be left unchanged. So, if you have a YUV signal in which black is RGB 16, black will be automatically raised to RGB 32. The "fix" is as was mentioned above. Apply a broadcast to computer RGB correction.

September 26th, 2008, 07:56 AM	#14
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	All I can say is good luck Paul. As much as I like using Vegas, as you found out, it's really messed up with these colorspace/levels issues. I am blown away Sony has done NOTHING to fix this.