Recurring Crashes with Vegas 8.0b

[Will Schryver]

I have been suffering repeated episodes of Vegas crashing while importing media, reviewing it in the trimmer, and then deleting clips deemed undesirable for the project.

I have, on occasion, received an actual error message complete with "details" which I then forwarded to Sony tech support. Most often, the application just hangs up and the only solution is to cancel it from within the Windows Task Manager.

I am running a Pentium Dual Core 2.4 gHz system with 3GB of RAM -- so that shouldn't be a problem. However, I am running under Vista Ultimate (oh, how I hate Microsoft!).

Sony has been essentially unresponsive. That, in an of itself, is quite aggravating. The last response suggested that I limit the quantity of footage I attempt to import at any given time! Well, I was only importing about two dozen clips that totaled about 15 minutes of footage, but I went ahead and started importing only 5 clips at a time. And now the damn thing has crashed twice this morning!

I just can't believe that there is something unique about my setup or workflow. I mean, I'm doing nothing at this point but trying to import freaking media and specify regions in the trimmer!

I have been using Vegas since 4.0, and this is the first time I have ever started to think the application is unstable. But it clearly is -- presumably because of interaction problems with Vista. The bottom line is that the application is essentially unusable at this point.

Anyone else out there having similar problems?
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Edit: FYI - I am importing .m2t footage shot on an Canon XH-A1, and captured with HDVSplit while playing through an Canon HV20. I have to use HDVSplit because Vegas 8.0 will not capture 24f footage shot on an XH-A1! That, they inform me, is a known problem. But they don't know when it will be fixed. Maybe it's time to try out Adobe Premiere Pro?

Edit #2: After reading the thread below that seemed to conclude that there could be a problem with drives going to sleep, I thought I would add one other interesting thing that happens. First, my Vista power options are set for maximum performance, and I have seen the problem whether I am attempting import media from my c: drive or an external drive where I capture and store most of my footage. However, I have noticed that when selecting files to import in the import media file select window, there is a pronounced delay between when I click on the file name and when it shows as "selected." It takes about a second or two, and the same thing happens for each file I select. I'm sure that has never happened before.

Edit #3: I thought it might also be pertinent to note that the first crash I had after loading 8.0 was a BSOD that resulted in the entire operating system being corrupted. I assumed that was the reason Spot and others recommend against storing video on the same drive as the OS. But, since I was running a RAID array, I figured I would be fine. Well, I got everything reloaded, and have been capturing to an external drive since. Haven't got any BSOD crashes, just these repeated app crashes. Now I can't even use Vegas for more than a few minutes without it crashing. Or at least I can't get past the point of importing media and trying to define regions in the trimmer.

[Bill Ravens]

Been using Vegas since version 3. Never a problem until version 8b and .m2t files. V8b is unstable, unreliable and a sorry excuse for a new release. I've explored other apps, specifically AVID Media Composer and Canopus edius. Both apps work VERY well. MC is not user friendly until you learn it, then it does things no other NLE can do. For quick and easy, Edius can't be beat, especially with real time playback.

[Will Schryver]

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens

Been using Vegas since version 3. Never a problem until version 8b and .m2t files. V8b is unstable, unreliable and a sorry excuse for a new release. I've explored other apps, specifically AVID Media Composer and Canopus edius. Both apps work VERY well. MC is not user friendly until you learn it, then it does things no other NLE can do. For quick and easy, Edius can't be beat, especially with real time playback.

Well, Bill, that's a pretty concise review -- albeit not a welcome one.

This is a sad day for Sony Vegas, if you ask me. I have really loved working with it over the years, and I've certainly contributed my share to their revenues. You'd think they would at least acknowledge these problems to their user base and assure us that they are working hard to remedy them. But I've gotten nothing but evasions from the tech support people I have talked to.

Still, the bottom line is that I have video to edit. And right now Vegas seems utterly incapable of doing the job.

[Edward Troxel]

Have you tried capturing with Vegas instead of HDVSplit?

[Will Schryver]

Originally Posted by Edward Troxel

Have you tried capturing with Vegas instead of HDVSplit?

As I indicated above, Vegas 8.0 will not capture HDV clips shot on an XH-A1. They acknowledge it as a known problem, but give no indication on the timetable for a resolution.

Incidentally, after my post above, I tried again to import clips. This time, I was able to select five clips in the window, and when I pressed ENTER to perform the operation, the clips appeared in the project media window, but the thumbnails were never created, and the application locked up again.

It is essentially an unusable product at this point. And since Vegas 7 won't work with Vista, I'm basically sunk.

This is a very disappointing turn of events. I've been busily reading Spot's Vegas 8.0 tutorial to pick up some new skills, but I guess it's all for nothing.

[Bill Ravens]

Will...

You know, I've been a pretty big proponent and supporter of vegas for years. With the release of version 8, customer support has, essentially, disappeared.Complaints from many quarters have been met with silence from Sony. This has become too much for me to accept....so I've moved on. I was very hesitant to do so, but, I've had enough from this mega-corp who could care less whether I exist, or not. An NLE is a tool in my business. Sony could care less whether their business decisions cost me income, or not. When a hammer breaks, you replace the hammer. In this case, I have no misplaced loyalties about my hammer. Vegas is broken.

There are those who have decided I'm "The Enemy", since I've spoken out about about my personal feelings about Sony and Vegas. They've tried to lay the blame at my feet, but, there are too many others with the same problems. The emperor has no clothes.

For all the negative things I'd heard about Avid and Grass Valley, over the years, they have a very active customer support. Both vendors have a very adequate documentation system. Things aren't left up to "best guesses" that never solve the problem.

[Will Schryver]

It's just outrageous, to me, how BAD this is! I mean, is it possible that they shoved Vegas Pro 8 out the door without anyone actually testing it for editing .m2t files in Vista?

Anyway, as you have noted -- and has been my recent experience -- the tech support people at Sony are either utterly indifferent, or entirely incompetent.

I sent my most recent tech support request on 05/18, 2:30pm. The first reply was over 48 hours later and consisted of the following:

Your request is highly technical in nature and requires additional research and expertise. This message is to let you know we are working on your question. I've escalated your request to senior support. They work on emails in the order in which they are received, and will reply to you as soon as possible.

24 hours later I received the following, from the same person who was previously not "expert" enough to help me:

Thank you for contacting Sony Creative Software. It appears you are importing MPEG-2 clips, is that correct? Can you estimate how many of these you are importing, and what the total length of the footage is? Instead of importing all your potential project media, you may wish to instead open a new project and selectively import clips. You can do this by using the explorer window and previewing the clips there; then Vegas doesn't have to ingest so many gigabytes at one time.

And this after I had already made it clear that I was only importing about 5 minutes of .m2t footage at a time!

I issued a follow-up response on 05/21, but no reply ever came. Now today (05/25) I have sent another complaint.

The bottom line is that I hate to lose the ability to do the things that Vegas does so well, like Track Motion and the relatively-easy 24f workflow. And, I'm not sure which direction to go if I dump Vegas at this point. I think Steve Dempsey has been using Adobe Premiere Pro to edit his 24f .m2t footage. I'm not sure which choice will provide me with the features and intuitive interface that Vegas has -- up until now -- provided.

Not only that, but it's a crying shame that I have invested several thousand dollars in Vegas and related Sony products over the years. And I have invested countless hours in building up a level of expertise in Vegas that permits me to do things well and fast. All of that will now be lost if I have to abandon Vegas in favor of something that actually works.

You'd think Sony would at least have some PR guy on this board trying to reassure everyone that everything will be all right in 8.0c. But they don't seem interested at all. Unfortunately, that is what always happens when a small successful company (like Sonic Foundry) gets bought out by a megalith like Sony. Things are all right for a couple years, then everything goes to hell in a handbasket!
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Edit: By the way, what other Vegas-related forums would you people recommend where I might be able to go and pose these questions/complaints? I love DVInfo.net, but the fact is that not very many people frequent this particular forum (What Happens in Vegas) and so responses are often slow in coming.

[Seth Bloombaum]

Will, I'd suggest the official sony forums at sonycreativesoftware.com. Sony techs do read that forum, and even post occasionally.

So many people have problems with HDVSplit - this is not sony's problem. It's been suggested that HDVSplit leaves some corrupt frames at the beginning or end of a capture. I don't really know, I don't use it. I suggested on this thread that it might be worth experimenting with the trial version of womble to see if the output of HDVSplit can be cleaned up.

If so, then direct some of your ire towards the author of HDVSplit!

However, I agree with you on the essential point - there should be no workaround neccessary at this point in time to adequately deal with the frame modes of recent Canon camcorders in Vegas.

Bill, you're not the enemy, and I don't lay blame at your feet. Most users, myself included, are not experiencing the problems you have. Anybody who wants to see if Vegas will be good in their workflow should try out the 30-day download. Vegas has its problems, as do Premiere, FCP and AVID.

[Bill Ravens]

Seth...

Just for the record, I've never used HDVSplit. I capture from my HD110 directly to my external hard drive recorder(I use both a Firestore and nNovia). Importing the m2t files from these drives results in red frames, dropped frames and hard crashes in Vegas. I have gotten into the habit of transcoding to cineform intermediate, before importing into vegas, using the scene detect feature. This solution works every time, without fail. Upon examining the cfhd files, it is fairly clear that the problem vegas is having occurs at places in the timeline where there is a timecode discontinuity. My reasoning is that if Cineform can find a way to read it, Sony should also be able.

I contacted Sony customer support with this knowledge. Their reply to me was identical to the one Will got. Basically, they blew me off without so much as a "let's have a look at what you're saying"....or "we're aware there is a problem and we're studying it. " Back in the days of Sonic Foundry, customer support would work with me to solve an issue. A little courtesy and attempt at working with customers would go a long ways. But, No!. I think it's clear that Sony is underfunding/undermanning the Madison site to the point where they can't support their customer base. There are other huge red flags showing up in version 8...such as the 32 bit FP fiasco, or the incorrect scopes problem. (as an aside, color timing is a pretty critical process that requires a lot of finesse. The preview window is wrong, scopes are the only guaranteed way of doing color grading with any accuracy and repeatability. If the scopes go wrong, there is nothing left but trial and error. I just can't afford the lost time for T&E))OK, all manufacturers have problems. But, rather than admit to them, and tell their loyal customers they are working on solutions, Sony chooses to be totally, completely, unequivocally silent. Vegas still won't import native EX1 .mov files, and yet, Edius will do it. That's pretty odd to me. This doesn't look like the kind of company I want to support, either on internet forums or with my wallet. Yes, we all have a choice.

So, what's a customer to do? I would suggest that Sony will continue to remain aloof, arrogant, and unsympathetic until they start losing business. If customers don't speak up, Sony Corp. will continue to be indifferent. Sony Corp. is so huge, they could care less about one disgruntled customer. But, what if there were 1000 disgruntled customers? I dare say they might.....and I can't even be sure of that....listen. In the meantime, there are other apps in a competitive marketplace that work even better than Vegas in a lot of ways I never realized before. Even if Vegas gets fixed, I won't ever go back to being a one NLE user. And that's the price Sony will pay for their arrogance.

It's your choice, as well. Sony counts on people not wanting to learn a new system. Why else would anyone in their right mind, put up with this abusive treatment? If this was beta software, I'd have no right to complain. But, it's defective software I paid money for; and, the manufacturer's viewpoint is that I can go lump it. Where's the recourse for buyers who were taken to the cleaners on this version?

At the risk of being long winded, I'll make one more comment. All editors should know how to use Avid. If you're an Avid user, finding work as an editor will be much easier, because it's an "industry standard", like it or not. A lot of people in my film community never heard of vegas. Curiously, Final Cut pro seems to be making pretty big inroads into the film maker's community. It may well displace Avid in the coming years. Makes me quiver in my boots to think of moving to a Mac, tho'....;o)

Courtesy prevents me from naming the individuals who were insulting to me for speaking up. Needless to say, Seth, you weren't one of them.

[John Kert]

You think you have trouble with M2T, wait until you try AVCHD (MTS canon, M2TS sony). V8b also freezes and can not handle footage from those cameras. So far I only complained on forums but I will try Sony directly.
JK

[Will Schryver]

Just as a follow up to my earlier posts:

A little trial and error has revealed that if you uncheck the automatic scene selection option in HDVSplit, then Vegas 8.0b will not crash when attempting to import/build peaks/build thumbnails of the clips you capture. I haven't yet determined if the scene selection relationship is only for 24f footage, but I have some suspicion that it is only 24f footage that is susceptible to the problem. I will attempt to verify that at some point in the near future.

At any rate, it still irks me that you can't capture XH-A1 24f footage in Vegas in the first place, but I have at least found a workaround in just capturing everything as a one big clip, and then dividing things up in the trimmer -- creating subclips, etc.

[Axel Scheffler]

Originally Posted by Edward Troxel

Have you tried capturing with Vegas instead of HDVSplit?

Edward is right, it is HDVSplitt. THis thing is discussed already several times and I had this also. After I tossed HDVSplitt Vegas is running like a good oiled machine. Somehow Vegas has problems with cutting of the first or last Frames of the GOP, so it's trashing up the memory with these files. Try the internal capture tool all your problems are gone.

Regards

Axel, San Jose

[Jeff Harper]

I cannot imagine these capturing issues will not be resloved in the next update or at the latest with the release of version 9. Thanks for the workaround. I am not shooting in HD mode yet, but when I have played with it capturing from my FX7 something wasn't right, and I just gave up, since it wasn't important. All of my paid work is still SD. I am grateful for all of you early adopters who are paving the way!

[Will Schryver]

Originally Posted by Axel Scheffler

Edward is right, it is HDVSplitt. THis thing is discussed already several times and I had this also. After I tossed HDVSplitt Vegas is running like a good oiled machine. Somehow Vegas has problems with cutting of the first or last Frames of the GOP, so it's trashing up the memory with these files. Try the internal capture tool all your problems are gone.

Regards

Axel, San Jose

Axel,

You obviously missed the fact that the Vegas capture tool currently will not capture 24f footage shot on a Canon XH-A1. Had I been able to capture in Vegas in the first place, I would never have needed to look for something like HDVSplit.

[Edward Troxel]

Will, I thought Vegas 7 *COULD* capture the 24f. Is that something you would try?