Vegas "Pre-renders" vs "Final Renders"?

Glen Elliott · July 16th, 2003, 08:07 AM

Is this the same Dennis from the SoFo forums- "SonicDennis"?!

Ok, let me see if I have this all straight:

1. First off- if I want a progressive scan DVD I first make sure I shoot my footage in 24pA to get the 2-3-3-2 pull-down which is much more efficient because it eliminates the stutter (or half-frame) cause from shooting in normal 24p mode with 2-3 pull-down.

2. When I begin a project I should set a template that will support this 2-3-3-2 pulldown while capturing, etc.

3. All pre-renders should be in 2-3-3-2 pulldown (where/how do I set this) but the final output should be set to 2-3 pull-down (set in the mainconcept encoder?)

4. Once output, authored, and burned through DVD Architect, flags will be added to the footage so that a progressive scan DVD player can retrieve the original progressive frames. A. At what point are these flags added?...in the encoding phase, or in DvdA during authoring?
B. Once this is done correctly and I'm using a progressive scan dvd player, what is the actual frame rate of the progressive footage?...24p or 60p?

Dennis Adams · July 17th, 2003, 12:04 AM

Glen:

Yes, it's SonicDennis (aka Dithermaster), just helping out here and there when I can.

Have you read the Vegas 24p whitepaper? All of these questions are answered there.

1. Right

2. Capture knows nothing about 24p and doesn't need to, just capture. In fact, VidCap will show 29.97 or something, just ignore it. The 24p extraction is done when the file is read by Vegas, not during capture.

3. Correct. The 2-3-3-2 template will be available when you do the prerender.

4. A. The MPEG-2 pulldown flags are added during the render when you choose the 24p template. The method used to encode 24p for DVD is identical to the DVDs that come out of Hollywood.

4. B. It's up to your player and the video interface to your television (component analog or DVI or ?). I'm not entirely sure what the gamut of choices are, but I think they are 60p instead of 24p (unless DVI has a 24p option for non-raster-scanned devices like DLP/LCD/Plasma). However, because the player is able to access true progressive frames, the 60p will better than 60i that's been deinterlaced. Note that many players ignore the flags and do inverse telecine based on detection of the judder frames. This will still work with this encoding method as well. Finally, these discs will play on "standard" 60i TVs with no problems.

///d@

Glen Elliott · July 17th, 2003, 02:55 PM

Thanks for your help Dennis- great job guys with such an incredible program as Vegas. I just wish I had awoken from my Premiere slumber earlier- I felt like Neo comming out of the Matrix for the first time when I started using Vegas. It truly opened my eyes.

My only concern is this whole Sony thing- I don't trust what they are going to do with this program! To Sony: if it ain't broken, don't fix it! ....OH, and keep all the original programers and engineers!

Dennis Adams · July 17th, 2003, 09:05 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Glen Elliott : To Sony: if it ain't broken, don't fix it! ....OH, and keep all the original programers and engineers! -->>>

So far, that's the plan :) We're got some exciting things in the works for Vegas 5.

///d@

Tor Salomonsen · July 18th, 2003, 01:13 AM

WOW!

Glen Elliott · July 18th, 2003, 04:37 AM

Hmm would you care to divulge any hints? *Pretty Please*

Dennis Adams · July 18th, 2003, 08:49 PM

I wish I could, but policy dictates that we don't talk about details of future releases. What if a feature got pulled before release -- you'd have my hide! In fact, they removed one of my fingernails just for mentioning the digit 5 after the name "Vegas". Forget I said that, OK? :-)
///d@

Glen Elliott · July 19th, 2003, 09:02 AM

Well I'm at least glad to know it's pressing forward. I have to admit to being a little worried about it's future after the whole Sony thing- speaking of which did that whole thing take place already? Is it official?

Dennis Adams · July 19th, 2003, 08:31 PM

It's awaiting approval at the annual shareholder's meeting which is in about a week.
///d@

July 16th, 2003, 08:07 AM	#16
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	Is this the same Dennis from the SoFo forums- "SonicDennis"?! Ok, let me see if I have this all straight: 1. First off- if I want a progressive scan DVD I first make sure I shoot my footage in 24pA to get the 2-3-3-2 pull-down which is much more efficient because it eliminates the stutter (or half-frame) cause from shooting in normal 24p mode with 2-3 pull-down. 2. When I begin a project I should set a template that will support this 2-3-3-2 pulldown while capturing, etc. 3. All pre-renders should be in 2-3-3-2 pulldown (where/how do I set this) but the final output should be set to 2-3 pull-down (set in the mainconcept encoder?) 4. Once output, authored, and burned through DVD Architect, flags will be added to the footage so that a progressive scan DVD player can retrieve the original progressive frames. A. At what point are these flags added?...in the encoding phase, or in DvdA during authoring? B. Once this is done correctly and I'm using a progressive scan dvd player, what is the actual frame rate of the progressive footage?...24p or 60p?

July 17th, 2003, 12:04 AM	#17
Dennis Adams Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 123	Glen: Yes, it's SonicDennis (aka Dithermaster), just helping out here and there when I can. Have you read the Vegas 24p whitepaper? All of these questions are answered there. 1. Right 2. Capture knows nothing about 24p and doesn't need to, just capture. In fact, VidCap will show 29.97 or something, just ignore it. The 24p extraction is done when the file is read by Vegas, not during capture. 3. Correct. The 2-3-3-2 template will be available when you do the prerender. 4. A. The MPEG-2 pulldown flags are added during the render when you choose the 24p template. The method used to encode 24p for DVD is identical to the DVDs that come out of Hollywood. 4. B. It's up to your player and the video interface to your television (component analog or DVI or ?). I'm not entirely sure what the gamut of choices are, but I think they are 60p instead of 24p (unless DVI has a 24p option for non-raster-scanned devices like DLP/LCD/Plasma). However, because the player is able to access true progressive frames, the 60p will better than 60i that's been deinterlaced. Note that many players ignore the flags and do inverse telecine based on detection of the judder frames. This will still work with this encoding method as well. Finally, these discs will play on "standard" 60i TVs with no problems. ///d@

July 17th, 2003, 02:55 PM	#18
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	Thanks for your help Dennis- great job guys with such an incredible program as Vegas. I just wish I had awoken from my Premiere slumber earlier- I felt like Neo comming out of the Matrix for the first time when I started using Vegas. It truly opened my eyes. My only concern is this whole Sony thing- I don't trust what they are going to do with this program! To Sony: if it ain't broken, don't fix it! ....OH, and keep all the original programers and engineers!

July 17th, 2003, 09:05 PM	#19
Dennis Adams Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 123	<<<-- Originally posted by Glen Elliott : To Sony: if it ain't broken, don't fix it! ....OH, and keep all the original programers and engineers! -->>> So far, that's the plan :) We're got some exciting things in the works for Vegas 5. ///d@

July 18th, 2003, 01:13 AM	#20
Tor Salomonsen Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Stavanger, Norway Posts: 265	WOW!

July 18th, 2003, 04:37 AM	#21
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	Hmm would you care to divulge any hints? Pretty Please

July 18th, 2003, 08:49 PM	#22
Dennis Adams Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 123	I wish I could, but policy dictates that we don't talk about details of future releases. What if a feature got pulled before release -- you'd have my hide! In fact, they removed one of my fingernails just for mentioning the digit 5 after the name "Vegas". Forget I said that, OK? :-) ///d@

July 19th, 2003, 09:02 AM	#23
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	Well I'm at least glad to know it's pressing forward. I have to admit to being a little worried about it's future after the whole Sony thing- speaking of which did that whole thing take place already? Is it official?

July 19th, 2003, 08:31 PM	#24
Dennis Adams Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 123	It's awaiting approval at the annual shareholder's meeting which is in about a week. ///d@