High Def to DVD quality losses?

[Walt Noon]

I recently did a two camera shoot with a standard def consumer camera (Optura Xi), and a high def XH-A1.
When I viewed the edit as a high def HDV file, not surprisingly, the high def A1 camera clearly had the richer picture with better colors and contrast.
However, after I rendered the project to DVD, I was amazed to find my fortunes switched! The high def picture looked "washed out" and the low def consumer camera shots actually looked BETTER than the high def shots when rendered to DVD.
I found the exact same thing when rendering to WMV.
Is there any reason a high def image suffers so much when rendered to these other formats?
I'd hate to have my high def camera produce a worse image than my low def when rendered to a DVD (which is where it will usually wind up).
Can I fix it?
I'm using Vegas 6, and the Cineform intermediate.
I'm rendering the Mpeg2 files for the DVD from Vegas as well, and not recoding with DVD Architect.
Thanks!

[David Newman]

This the pain of Vegas using of "studio RGB" (black at 16) instead of computer RGB (black at 0.) "Washed out" tells me you are not handle the RGB ranges correctly. Someone get this wrong every day using Vegas, it is surprizing to me that it is not made easier on users. The quick fix: place the studio RGB to cumpter RGB filter on output for rendering. Users shouldn't have to do that. Search on "washed out" and you will find hundreds discussing discovering the same thing. The weird thing is studio RGB is better then cgRGB, it just shouldn't impact your editing experience like it does. I told Sony of my opinion on this before. The good news is there is nothing wrong with your HD footage, just setup issue.

[Mark Williams]

David,

Your help on this and other items is much appreciated. It is really amazing the amount of help that is available on this site. You are one of the shinning stars.

[Paul Kellett]

Originally Posted by David Newman

This the pain of Vegas using of "studio RGB" (black at 16) instead of computer RGB (black at 0.) "Washed out" tells me you are not handle the RGB ranges correctly. Someone get this wrong every day using Vegas, it is surprizing to me that it is not made easier on users. The quick fix: place the studio RGB to cumpter RGB filter on output for rendering. Users shouldn't have to do that. Search on "washed out" and you will find hundreds discussing discovering the same thing. The weird thing is studio RGB is better then cgRGB, it just shouldn't impact your editing experience like it does. I told Sony of my opinion on this before. The good news is there is nothing wrong with your HD footage, just setup issue.

David,could you explain the above proccess.

Thanks,Paul.

[Paul Cascio]

I just had a similar experience, so I'd love to hear the nuts and bolts of this technique too. Thanks David.

[Mike Kujbida]

To convert from Studio RGB to Computer RGB (or vice versa), click the FX icon and select "Color Corrector (Secondary)".
In the Preset window, select "Studio RGB to Computer RGB" (or "Computer RGB to Studio RGB").
That's it :-)

BTW, Glenn Chan has two excellent articles on color space ("Explanation of Levels and the Different Color Spaces used in Sony Vegas" and "Color Spaces in Vegas 8") on his site.
Highly recommended reading!!

[Mark Howells]

For idiots like me what exactly does this mean in a practical sense?

I have just started editing hdv in Vegas. Will this default to Studio RGB in the Vegas preview window and therefore true blacks at zero and whites at 100 using the scopes?

If I render out and downconvert to SD on DVD, do I keep it as Studio RGB. ie apply no preset If I render out to an internet format such as wmv, do I then apply the Studio RGB to Computer RGB preset to ensure the levels are correct. What about H264.

[Kevin Janisch]

Wouldn't this have an adverse affect on color correcting? I just imported some footage into Vegas that looked vivid while capturing with a 3rd party app but was washed out in Vegas. Imported the same clip into Premiere and it looked good. Changed my setup per this thread's recommendation and all looks like it should, but I just finished up a piece yesterday with full CC. When I apply this to my finished project, blacks are crushed and highlights are blown. So if you're doing your thing with CC and then output using the Studio RGB to Computer RGB, how does the end result DVD on a HDTV or CRT compare to what your seeing while color correcting? Shouldn't this be the first thing you do before any CC? Shouldn't this be automatic? Premiere doesn't have this problem.

Kevin

[David Newman]

Sony created this trouble, they should have a white paper on the correct proceedures. I would love to see it.

[Paul Cascio]

Really dissapointing that Sony would allow what would seem to be an easily correctible problem to exist. I love Vegas, but this is a deal killer in my opinion.

[Matthew Roddy]

And from what I understand, it's even wackier in 32bit mode with gamma being this or that or maybe something else.
As mentioned, Glenn Chan tried his best to explain it, but... it's way beyond me at this point.
I do wish there was a one-sheet (is that the same as a white sheet?) that said:
To make a DVD from HDV material in 8 bit mode, do this:
To make a DVD from HDV material in 32 bit mode, do this:
To make a WMV (or similar) from HD... etc...
That, I might understand... maybe...
Better yet, why can't Vegas just behave like other edit programmes like Preimer or even FCP.
But looking through some of the Stickies that have nearly 200 posts each is just mind boggling. Makes trying to gleen info from them very daunting indeed.
Don't get me wrong, I love Vegas - been using it since V4. But now that I'm into HDV and hopefully soon into HD, I'd like an easy, smooth workflow that you don't have to have several workarounds for.

[Perrone Ford]

Originally Posted by Paul Cascio

I love Vegas, but this is a deal killer in my opinion.

Why?

Not that I am a Sony apologist...
I always work in 32bit. Seems to me that if I am planning on going to the web or DVD, I'll lay on a Studio to Computer level and render. If not, turn it off. On projects I don't plan to take to the web or DVD, I just work normally and render out.

I just don't see how that's a deal killer. When I worked with Canopus, ONLY Canopus could read the AVI files! It was like Cineform, but without the open sharing and free decoders that Cineform offers.

[edit]

You know, since I am in the middle of a project right now that is going to render out for web as well as DVD, I just checked my settings. 32 bit, linear (1.000), and my renders to mpeg, mov, and wmv all look very close to what I have in the previews. And yes, I use a calibrated monitor to see what things will actually look like NTSC also. No levels, no trickery, it just works. Maybe life is different for 8-bit folks, but I am VERY pleased with my results and I am not doing anything special at all.

[Paul Cascio]

I see you point Perrone, but unfortunately we don't find out about this flaw until we render. Even then, Sony doesn't tell us why, or how to fix it.

[Perrone Ford]

Do you guys not do test renders? I typically highlight five seconds of video in different places (dark, bright, saturated, etc.) and run those through a quick render to tell me how the codec I am going to use, is going to hold up at the selected bitrate.

When I am happy, I'll run the whole thing. If I am going to DVD, I can tell when I drop the proof into DVD Architect how it's going to look. If my colors are all screwed up, I know about it BEFORE I burn the whole thing.

It takes 5 minutes and can save hours of trouble. But I do this kind of thing daily, so I've built up my confidence. I know mostly how the codecs I use will respond. I've been rechecking a lot lately since I've just gone to a cineform workflow, but so far, so good.

Everything still just "works". The proof DVD that I rendered the other night was spot on with colors. I couldn't have been happier, and I didn't need to change any levels or anything else.

32-bit may be slower, but it's consistent, and I love my results. I wouldn't trade this confidence for the bit of speed I might get back in 8-bit and having to fool with the gamma and levels, etc.

[Paul Cascio]

Pardon these questions, but how do you set for 32 bit, and can it be done at any time?
Also, how much longer do you estimate it takes to render v. 8 bit?