Vegas/monitor for color correcting?

Jon Fairhurst · March 12th, 2008, 01:17 AM

Sean,

You're right. The 37-inch A63 is the smallest 1080p TV that Sharp sells in Singapore right now.

http://www.sharp.com.sg/SharpProducts/products_main.asp

Sharp was the first to push 1080p to the smaller sizes, so it's unlikely that you'll find a 32-inch 1080p model from another manufacturer - but you never know.

Regardless of who makes it, a high-quality 32-inch 1080p LCD-TV with DVI/HDMI is a nice way to go.

One note: on the GP1, I found that I had to connect it using DVI, rather than HDMI. Sharp's 1080p TVs have a dot-by-dot mode that avoids all scaling with 1080 signals. It works fine on the HDMI inputs from an AV product, like a set-top-box or Blu-ray player, but using a DVI to HDMI adapter from a PC didn't work right - the scaling was off by a few percent.

Connecting the PC to the TV using DVI works as it should with no unwanted scaling. And the gamma is still TV-like, rather than PC-like. Use brightness at 0 for full-scale (0-255) signals and set it to -18 for studio (16-235) signals. And you can dim the backlight to taste. It saves power and is more comfortable that way in normal room lighting.

One other tip: let your LCD warm up for about 15-minutes before any serious color correction. CCFL tubes are inefficient when cold. Before they warm up, they consume more power and are a bit dark. The model I use looks good after only a couple of minutes, and it's fully stable after 15 minutes.

There are some off-brand TVs that take *much* longer to stabilize, but these are the exception. (I'm the project leader for an IEC standards effort to measure TV power, so I've seen a lot of data on stabilization times. http://electronics.ihs.com/collectio...ical/articles/)

Piotr Wozniacki · March 12th, 2008, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Fairhurst

It could be that you're running the preview at a higher resolution and/or quality than you were in the preview window. You might also be disk limited, if you are running at a low compression rate.

I've been running mostly uncompressed with a 4-drive RAID-0. It works great for 720p or 1080i, but I would need 8-drives for 1080p in real time. The CPU is almost idle when playing back at full speed.

If you are using compressed signals, the CPU is probably choking. Hi Ctrl-Del and open the Task Manager. You can check your CPU performance there.

No Jon, I am trying the exactly same settings on the external monitor as in the preview window (Best/Full). Without the external monitor, I'm getting full 25fps; why does clicking the external monitor icon above the preview window slow it down?

I mean, if my CPU and HDD are capable of full speed playback in the Best/Full preview window, they should be on external monitor, as well!

Stuart Campbell · March 12th, 2008, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Kujbida

Stuart, have you priced out the optional SDI card?
The monitor (DT-V100CGU) is only $689.95 at B&H.
However, the SDI card (special order only) is a mere $1,699.95 !!!

Wow, that's nuts! I did price it up when I looked and the optional input card is just less than the price of the monitor. So nearly half the price of what you've seen! There never seems to be any parity in prices of the same product between countries!

There is also the JVC 17 and 9 inch LCD HD monitors which don't require any input modulations. Ready to go and look impressive. If you are happy with a 9 inch version it's very cost effective.

http://www.jvcpro.co.uk/item/index_html?item=DT-V9L1D

found this one for less than 800 quid, and the 17 incher

http://www.jvcpro.co.uk/item/index_html?item=DT-V17L2D

for just a little bit more. Bargain! Anyone any experience of these monitors?

Glenn Chan · March 12th, 2008, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart Campbell

However, I was wondering how that fairs when you record and edit in HD but deliver in SD? What's the best option here? and can you get away with monitoring a SD output? What should I be monitoring? the HD I've shot and am editing, or a SD output as that's what it'll end up being?

In the mean time, I did find a cost effective HD monitor from JVC. You need to buy the optional HD input module, so that makes this a good flexible monitor for those not ready for HD, but requiring good CRT monitoring. I am days away from purchasing a new monitor and this one looks pretty good. It will offer me the option of monitoring both!

http://www.jvcpro.co.uk/item/index_html?item=DT-V100CG

1- If you are outputting SD, then it'll be good to monitor your final SD video on a SD broadcast monitor.

2- That JVC monitor only accepts SD-SDI I think. It probably won't take a HD-SDI input card (but maybe it will??). I'm not familiar enough with that model to say.

Glenn Chan · March 12th, 2008, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Davis

Hey Glenn, on that note, I was doing some screen grabbing the other day. Since the grab looks better on my JVC monitor, is it reasonable to expect that a printout of the same grab will look more like my monitor's representation as opposed to my computer monitor? All things being equal, such as high quality print etc.

Look at it in Photoshop or other image editing application capable of color management. It'll give you the best approximation of what the print will look like.

Quote:

I tried to calibrate last night and the contrast settings are there but unavailable.

That might be because calibrating the "contrast" doesn't make sense for DVI. The DVI connection is digital so the interface doesn't go out of drift like analog/VGA does.

There are other aspects of the monitor that can be calibrated... but the monitor may not have the ability to do so. (e.g. some calibration schemes use 3-D LUTs to cheat the colors to be more accurate; the monitor can't do those other kinds of calibration)

Steven Davis · March 12th, 2008, 02:10 PM

Thanks for the help Glenn, now can you please pay off my mortgage?

Stuart Campbell · March 23rd, 2008, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn Chan

1- If you are outputting SD, then it'll be good to monitor your final SD video on a SD broadcast monitor.

Thanks Glen,

I edit in HD all the way until rendering where it gets downconverted. Will I experience any issues in monitoring HDV colours when it'll end up in SD? I presume my ultimate SD colours will be different if I've been monitoring HDV colours?

Glenn Chan · March 23rd, 2008, 04:36 PM

Stuart,
So you're monitoring HD but outputting SD? What method are you using to montior HD? (e.g. HD-SDI via an Aja card, Windows secondary display, etc.)

Stuart Campbell · March 24th, 2008, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn Chan

Stuart,
So you're monitoring HD but outputting SD? What method are you using to montior HD? (e.g. HD-SDI via an Aja card, Windows secondary display, etc.)

Up until recently we've only cut SD and used a 9" Sony CRT for monitoring. Now, however, everything we edit in house is shot on and edited in HDV using Vegas. The first HDV project was cut and monitored using just the two 20" LCD displays (split over the 2 screens). The colour correction process was very much 'trial and error' as it was all monitored on the LCD's. Now, I'm just about to install Vegas 8 so I can do all CC and FX work in 32 bit but I need to get our monitoring sorted before doing any CC work! I had a read through your article on colour spaces in Vegas 8 and it's left me with a bit of a headache (not your excellent article!)........

Do we buy something like a Blackmagic Intensity Pro card so we have the option of monitoring on an HD monitor (if and when we get one) or monitor the HDV CC work on an SD crt or the 2nd LCD?

The immediate problem to be solved is that we edit in HDV and output to SD. All monitoring is done on the 2 LCD's before it's downconverted. Do you think this is the wrong way to go about it when considering Vegas colour spaces in floating 32bit?

I'm a bit confused!! Naturally, if we had a stack of cash the answer would be easy!...although how does a colour corrected HDV edit look once downconverted? Do I need to re-colour correct for SD downconversion??

Thanks in advance Glen

Stuart

Glenn Chan · March 24th, 2008, 08:42 PM

You can just monitor that in SD, since your final product is SD anyways. What's important is that you also do QC on your final product and make sure it looks right, there's no spelling mistakes, rendering errors, etc. etc.

So you have your HD footage.
You can monitor SD via firewire to your Sony monitor.

When previewing, be careful that you are seeing the right colors. In 8-bit mode, things will be fine.
In 32-bit mode, HDV will decode to computer RGB levels but Vegas' DV codec will want to see studio RGB levels. So the colors will look wrong. You could apply a "computer RGB to studio RGB" color corrector preset on the Video Output FX (though this can be dangerous if you forget to take it out before rendering)... or you can simply grade in an 8-bit project (where the colors will look right) and then flip to 32-bit before you render.

When you render, you should check that you are feeding the encoder with the right levels. The table in my article lists what many codecs expect. In 32-bit, if going from HDV to MPEG2/DVD, then no conversion is necessary.

Glenn Bailey · March 26th, 2008, 04:59 PM

what about a product like this:

http://spyder.datacolor.com/product-mc-s3pro.php

how well do they work for say doing CC with a LCD?

March 12th, 2008, 01:17 AM	#16
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	Sean, You're right. The 37-inch A63 is the smallest 1080p TV that Sharp sells in Singapore right now. http://www.sharp.com.sg/SharpProducts/products_main.asp Sharp was the first to push 1080p to the smaller sizes, so it's unlikely that you'll find a 32-inch 1080p model from another manufacturer - but you never know. Regardless of who makes it, a high-quality 32-inch 1080p LCD-TV with DVI/HDMI is a nice way to go. One note: on the GP1, I found that I had to connect it using DVI, rather than HDMI. Sharp's 1080p TVs have a dot-by-dot mode that avoids all scaling with 1080 signals. It works fine on the HDMI inputs from an AV product, like a set-top-box or Blu-ray player, but using a DVI to HDMI adapter from a PC didn't work right - the scaling was off by a few percent. Connecting the PC to the TV using DVI works as it should with no unwanted scaling. And the gamma is still TV-like, rather than PC-like. Use brightness at 0 for full-scale (0-255) signals and set it to -18 for studio (16-235) signals. And you can dim the backlight to taste. It saves power and is more comfortable that way in normal room lighting. One other tip: let your LCD warm up for about 15-minutes before any serious color correction. CCFL tubes are inefficient when cold. Before they warm up, they consume more power and are a bit dark. The model I use looks good after only a couple of minutes, and it's fully stable after 15 minutes. There are some off-brand TVs that take much longer to stabilize, but these are the exception. (I'm the project leader for an IEC standards effort to measure TV power, so I've seen a lot of data on stabilization times. http://electronics.ihs.com/collectio...ical/articles/) __________________ Jon Fairhurst

March 12th, 2008, 02:10 PM	#21
Steven Davis Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 3,065	Thanks for the help Glenn, now can you please pay off my mortgage? __________________ What happens if I push the 'Red' button?

March 23rd, 2008, 04:36 PM	#23
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	Stuart, So you're monitoring HD but outputting SD? What method are you using to montior HD? (e.g. HD-SDI via an Aja card, Windows secondary display, etc.)

March 24th, 2008, 08:42 PM	#25
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	You can just monitor that in SD, since your final product is SD anyways. What's important is that you also do QC on your final product and make sure it looks right, there's no spelling mistakes, rendering errors, etc. etc. So you have your HD footage. You can monitor SD via firewire to your Sony monitor. When previewing, be careful that you are seeing the right colors. In 8-bit mode, things will be fine. In 32-bit mode, HDV will decode to computer RGB levels but Vegas' DV codec will want to see studio RGB levels. So the colors will look wrong. You could apply a "computer RGB to studio RGB" color corrector preset on the Video Output FX (though this can be dangerous if you forget to take it out before rendering)... or you can simply grade in an 8-bit project (where the colors will look right) and then flip to 32-bit before you render. When you render, you should check that you are feeding the encoder with the right levels. The table in my article lists what many codecs expect. In 32-bit, if going from HDV to MPEG2/DVD, then no conversion is necessary.

March 26th, 2008, 04:59 PM	#26
Glenn Bailey New Boot Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 8	what about a product like this: http://spyder.datacolor.com/product-mc-s3pro.php how well do they work for say doing CC with a LCD?