rendering to HD in 24p? [yikes! urgent!]

[Robert Gould]

.. so I have a feature-length doc project that I shot in HDV and cut in HDV in Vegas. (I used whatever codec is set to default when you ingest footage in Vegas.)

Up to now i have only rendered this project as a standard-def DV file. Whenever I do that, I use the option for 24p DV using the 2-3-3-2 pulldown. I've put these files onto DVD and also had it layed-off to DigiBeta.

Now, however, I may have to put it onto HDCam soon, so I obviously want to render it as the best-quality file given that I shot it in HDV.

I really got caught off guard here, because I thought this would be a lot easier to do and now the file is overdue and I don't know how to render it...

So first, (1) what file format should I render it to? It it just "uncompressed", or YUV, or what?

and (2), when I render it to that file, can I use the same option for 2-3-3-2 pulldown to make it look 24p? This is an absolute dealbreaker for me because I hate the look of interlaced video.

I messed around a bit before with the YUV files and uncompressed, but I could never see an option for 24p. Also, I'd rather not have to render the file first then run it through some kind of Magic Bullet or something to get it to look 24p... I'd want it to be 24p from the first rendering.

Any advice, gentlemen? Your guidance has always proven helpful to me.

Best,
R Gould

[David Hadden]

While I can't help you for certain on the rendering directly from Vegas, you could use the debugmode frame server to push it from the vegas timeline magic bullet if you can't figure something out shortly. It would then only be a single rendering and should result in your final product being 24p. I've not used it wth HD before but I don't think there are any restrictions on the size so you should be safe in that respect.

hope that helps :).

Dave

Originally Posted by Robert Gould

.. so I have a feature-length doc project that I shot in HDV and cut in HDV in Vegas. (I used whatever codec is set to default when you ingest footage in Vegas.)

Up to now i have only rendered this project as a standard-def DV file. Whenever I do that, I use the option for 24p DV using the 2-3-3-2 pulldown. I've put these files onto DVD and also had it layed-off to DigiBeta.

Now, however, I may have to put it onto HDCam soon, so I obviously want to render it as the best-quality file given that I shot it in HDV.

I really got caught off guard here, because I thought this would be a lot easier to do and now the file is overdue and I don't know how to render it...

So first, (1) what file format should I render it to? It it just "uncompressed", or YUV, or what?

and (2), when I render it to that file, can I use the same option for 2-3-3-2 pulldown to make it look 24p? This is an absolute dealbreaker for me because I hate the look of interlaced video.

I messed around a bit before with the YUV files and uncompressed, but I could never see an option for 24p. Also, I'd rather not have to render the file first then run it through some kind of Magic Bullet or something to get it to look 24p... I'd want it to be 24p from the first rendering.

Any advice, gentlemen? Your guidance has always proven helpful to me.

Best,
R Gould

[Chris Barcellos]

You didn't give much information to help. I am assuming you are editing a 60i HDV .m2t file. What was it shot in ? What camera.

Assuming it was shot in 60i HDV, try downloading NeoHDV or NeoHD from Cineform. Output your finished file to a final HDV .m2t file at 60i, again.

Open Neo HDV's HD link. Select convert tab. Select preferences. Set

quality high:

select remove 3-2 pulldown

Select deinterlace

resize to output format (NTSC 16x9)

Check it out, may work for you.

[Robert Gould]

David, as for your advice to "use the debugmode frame server to push it from the vegas"... I'm sorry, I don't understand at all what you mean. Can you elaborate a bit more about what you're tking about? Is this an option within Vegas?

Chris, here's some details on what I'm using: It is a ~70 minute project file consisting of six nested projects, and the majority of the footage is 60i HDV shot using a Sony HVR-A1U...

I have been experimenting with different rendering options all day and NONE of them work... in fact, whenever I render to an HD file at 23.97 or 24 frames I get a file that stutters and hangs on every image for a few seconds. Or, using some options, I get an .avi that shows NO IMAGE, and you can just hear the sound.

Might I be missing some freely available codec that would do this?

I will give this Neo HD trial download a try... of course it seems odd to me that I would need an add-on. Shouldn't Vegas be able to handle this within the program?

Thanks both for your advice. I would appreciate any more that you or others could offer, as I'm still stuck in no man's land at the moment.

Best,
R Gould

[Robert Gould]

And yes, to clarify, all the 60i HDV originals are .m2t files.

[David Hadden]

debugmode frame server is nothing within vegas. It's a separate entity. Search google for it, you'll find all the info you need there.

Dave

[Jim Montgomery]

I would render it back out as an m2t file on tape. Send that tape to a production facility and have them master it to Digibeta. Forget about trying to go from 60i to 24p it is nothing but trouble.

Jim

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Originally Posted by Jim Montgomery

I would render it back out as an m2t file on tape. Send that tape to a production facility and have them master it to Digibeta. Forget about trying to go from 60i to 24p it is nothing but trouble.

Jim

Why do you feel this way? We've done dozens (or more) productions exactly this way.
Robert, if you have my Vegas 6 book, it details the workflow for printing this content to HDCAM. It'll still be packaged in the 60i stream with pulldown.
Rendering to Sony YUV is your only option if you're going out HD SDI to HDCAM, unless you render to the Sony YUV codec and send it off to a service bureau for delivery on HDCAM.
Are you sure your client/broadcaster won't take XDCAM HD? Faster render, easier format to work with. Most broadcasters/distributors will accept the XDCAM HD master.

[Robert Gould]

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

Why do you feel this way? We've done dozens (or more) productions exactly this way.
Robert, if you have my Vegas 6 book, it details the workflow for printing this content to HDCAM. It'll still be packaged in the 60i stream with pulldown.
Rendering to Sony YUV is your only option if you're going out HD SDI to HDCAM, unless you render to the Sony YUV codec and send it off to a service bureau for delivery on HDCAM.
Are you sure your client/broadcaster won't take XDCAM HD? Faster render, easier format to work with. Most broadcasters/distributors will accept the XDCAM HD master.

Douglas... I do not myself have the equipment to render either to HDCAM or XDCAM.... all I need to provide them with is some kind of file that they can then lay off to HD Cam.

My problem is, I cannot get ANY file rendered in any kind of HD. I am not sure if my copy of Vegas is corrupted, or what the problem is.... everytime I try to create an HD file it ends up being either (1) terribly squeezed in the middle with black bars on the side or (2) stuttering, freezing on frames for several seconds as it plays or (3) completely blank, or some combination of above problems.

Although this project is shot and edited in HDV, I have ONLY been able to successfully render it to DV files.

What am I missing?

Right now I am going to try and use this debugmode frameserver to put the footage to After Effects and see if I can render HD from that.

If that doesn't work, I may indeed just have to lay it off to HDV tape (although the project will have to be split over 2 tapes) and then try to convince the house to ingest it and convert to HD Cam. Although realistically if I try that they will likely say "forget it" and just have the film show in standard definition, which is a shame.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Robert, everyone who has Vegas has the tools they need to render to an uncompressed format.
The only issues involved are :
time
storage space

Nothing else. To PLAY BACK uncompressed material is an entirely different story. If you don't have a fast computer, fast array, etc, then there is simply no way the average off-the-shelf computer can play back a 4:2:2 uncompressed HD file. It won't happen.
As far as the black bars on the sides, etc...it sounds like you're missing some information about aspect ratio, pixel formatting, etc.

[Robert Gould]

Well, this has been a learning process, to be sure.


I was able to take Chris' suggestion on using the Aspect HD codec... I was able to render out from Vegas with it to a 1280x720 file, at 23.976 ITVC film.

The resultant file looked and played well, but I was concerned that it was only 21gb, whereas my DV master of the same file was 15gb. This did not seem to be commensurate with a jump from DV to HDV. What am I missing?

Douglas, I did not know that playing back HD was so difficult..... I have a dual core 2.6ghz with 4gb of RAM... however I do not run a RAID array. Should I not be able to play back uncompressed HD? I do not have a superfast video card.

Clearly, there are a lot of things I do not understand about HD and HDV at this point. Any help someone can give, or a link to a crash course online, would be helpful. I have read different things online but it kind of gets to be information overload, and the net effect seems to be that I don't really understand what format I've bought into.

[Douglas Spotted Eagle]

Playback of UNCOMPRESSED HD is a big deal. Playback of HDV, AVCHD, WMVHD, and other highly compressed HD formats is no big thing, and somethign most every 'puter built in the past couple of years can manage.
There is a very comprehensive HD Primer on the VASST.com website.