Multicam editing question at DVinfo.net

Renton Maclachlan · March 3rd, 2008, 04:59 AM

I have Vegas 8 and have used the great multicam feature on all my recent projects.

However I would like to know how others proceed down the multicam track and make the camera switches.

Real time playing and banging away at the various camera numbers as the action speeds by, doesn't seem to me to be the best way to do it, even though it is all I have done so far. I've had to go back and fine tune every transition, which is somewhat daunting.

I've been thinking of using the > arrow key to proceed through a frame at a time - more or less - as an alternative.

Is there a more leisurely alternative way to do it, other than real time?

Mark Stavar · March 3rd, 2008, 06:07 AM

Renton,

If you hold down the 'k' key and then press 'l' (lowercase L), the playback will proceed in slo-mo (25% I think). Press 'l' again (without holding down 'k') -> 50%; 'l' again -> 75%; 'l' again 100%.

Same with 'k' -'j' to go in reverse.

This might help you if you want to get closer on the go.

In my limited experience though, you always need to go back and fine tune a bit.

Anyway, give it a go.

Ciao,

marks

Renton Maclachlan · March 3rd, 2008, 01:07 PM

Thanks Mark, that sounds like it may be what I'm after.

Jeremiah Rickert · March 4th, 2008, 04:57 AM

I recently got done editing a 3 camera project using Vegas. It was a concert that clocked out at about 1hr 30 mins.

I dragged the three streams into the timelines and synced them up by finding camera flashes. In Vegas you can actually zoom all the way into a frame view and that was really handy for getting those camera flashes all lined up.

In my setup, I had one camera on a wide shot pretty much the whole show, and two hand-held cameras doing closeups. I made sure they they all rolled tape the whole time and didn't ever pause the camera. (essential!) The only re-sync I had to do was around the time of the tape change.

I went through the whole concert with the first handheld camera and put cuts (using the split key) to separate out all of the good shots for that camera. (i.e., no shaking, no zooming, no bad focus). I cut away all of the "bad" footage from that angle.

I repeated the same for the other handheld camera.

Then I dragged the wide shot video track to the "bottom" so the cut-out pieces were on top. (When I cut away the unused parts I actually left the soundtrack on there so the whole thing would stay in sync). I just muted the soundtracks I didn't need.

Then I hit play and just watched for good cuts. I put fades on either side of some clips, and others I left as hard cuts. You can actually instinctually "feel" which should be which.

I don't know if that's a faster way or not. It wasn't too hard to scroll through and find the good shots, in fact you can cut away huge sections just by going faster than normal speed. In the end, I had a pretty good looking series of cuts all things considered and almost all my bad zooms/shakes/focus problems were covered up.

JR

Seth Bloombaum · March 4th, 2008, 10:19 AM

Jeremiah, thanks for sharing that workflow - sounds good.

In contrast, I shot an event with 4 cameras with almost no camera shake (1 dolly cam, one jib, one on sticks, one high-angle locked off). The event was about an hour and fifteen minutes, a Whirling Dervish ceremony.

I've done cuts of it using both Vegas Multicam and VASST Ultimate-S, both worked well. For me, U-S is a little easier to go back in and fix up.

By comparison with what Jeremiah suggested above, what I did was pretty quick and dirty, but good for a first cut. My advice would be "it depends"!

PS. I use J-K-L editing all the time. Both for slow play forward-reverse, as Mark suggested, and for 100% speed and fast forward-reverse. This is enhanced if you go into prefs and change the shuttling speed to 20x (I think the default is 4x). I hardly ever touch my ShuttlePro any more.

Renton Maclachlan · March 4th, 2008, 03:50 PM

Thanks Jeremiah. But you apparently did not use the multicam feature where you run down your time line viewing all your cameras at once and making your choices on the basis of the best one at the time.

Jeremiah Rickert · March 4th, 2008, 06:29 PM

You're correct. Because I didn't have always steady shots with the other two cameras, it was easier to cut away all of the unusable material from the other shots and go from there.

If I had 3 or 4 really constantly good shots, then the multi-cam view makes more sense.

I wish I'd had about four stable cameras :)

If I'd had a live switcher on-site, there probably would've been less cuts overall, because I wouldn't have switched unless there was a steady shot to swtich to. If you get up to about 4 steady cameras, you always have a shot.

I only posted my workflow as an example of another way to do it, without using the multi-cam feature.

Renton Maclachlan · March 4th, 2008, 08:03 PM

I'm just editing a 3 camera shoot (parts are four cameras) the one that prompted the original query, and by using multicam you see your stable and moving shots all at the same time, and so can make your choice of camera.

As you don't necessarily know what is coming up, you may have to to back up and redo your choice because the camera you choose at a particular point may start moving too soon after it has been selected, and another one may become stable.

I have found using the J K L keys far better than using the Enter key only as I have been doing till now. Thanks again Mark.

I pulled out my Vegas 8 Keyboard Command card to see if there are another useful combinations. ctl-shift-D to undo is good.

I've also found that at the actual shoot, we were taking too long to compose our shots so the cameras were moving too long. We really need to get to our shot fast and then leave it alone, rather than dawdle around hunting for a finely tuned composition!

Jeremiah Rickert · March 4th, 2008, 08:39 PM

Has anyone used one of those USB connected Jog/Shuttle devices? I've thought of going that way.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Contour-ShuttleP...QQcmdZViewItem

JR

Edward Troxel · March 5th, 2008, 07:39 AM

There's LOTS of people using the shuttlepro with Vegas. it can be a very handy device!

Seth Bloombaum · March 5th, 2008, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum

...PS. I use J-K-L editing all the time. Both for slow play forward-reverse, as Mark suggested, and for 100% speed and fast forward-reverse. This is enhanced if you go into prefs and change the shuttling speed to 20x (I think the default is 4x). I hardly ever touch my ShuttlePro any more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeremiah Rickert

Has anyone used one of those USB connected Jog/Shuttle devices? I've thought of going that way.

Hmmm... I guess I'm talking to myself. :-0

The ShuttlePro is good. For me, it comes out on the big projects, and is especially handy for frame-by-frame jogging. For smaller stuff I really like J-K-L, it's always there on my laptop or editing station, and super-fast to use without lifting my hand from the keyboard.

Renton Maclachlan · March 5th, 2008, 02:58 PM

My original query has been answered by me being pointed to J K L.

However, just picking up on Jeremiah's comments about sync'ing. My present project has four video and ten audio tracks and I went to quite some length to get them all sync'd. This involved deciding on what track/s would be my base line to sync all the others to.

I chose my Zoom H2 audio tracks as they were clear and continuous right through. As it turned out no other tracks were recording at exactly the same speed. This was not a great issue. I set a marker at the beginning and got the tracks lined up, then went to the end and stretched the others until they lined up also. (It was a bit more complicated that this because none of the video tracks were continuous and each section had to be sync'd separately to the H2 tracks, beginning and end.)

Anyway, I got it all so I was satisfied everything was lined up, and made my multicam track and began choosing my camera angles.

Low and behold, when I was about an hour in, I start noticing in shots from two of the cameras where I could lip read talent, I was out of sync by 3-4 or 6-9 frames. It was quite noticable. This required re sync'ing each clip on the multlcam track where it was noticable. As some shots were cutaways with no speaking going on, they looked alright.

Re sync'ing the clips was not a difficult thing to do. I just lifted a clip onto another vidoe track, moved it the required frames, dragged both ends of the clip back to match the slot it came from and then dropped it back into the slot.

This is the second time this has happened with me.

Dave Blackhurst · March 5th, 2008, 04:05 PM

watch your ripple settings, and it's easy to accidently "nudge" a clip - I found that once I get everything where I want it, I'll use the "group" function to lock them all together - works for me.

Also, highly recommend the ShuttlePro - with that on left hand (buttons programmed to taste), mouse on right, hardly ever touch the keyboard...

Renton Maclachlan · March 5th, 2008, 05:35 PM

Thanks Dave. I use the 'group' function to lock them all also so it must be something else going on. It sure is easy to nudge an event otherwise. Same when doing 'envelopes'. I use the envelope tool now rather than General edit tool as it is so easy to nudge otherwise.

I've discovered that to find clips out of sync like this is not the end of the world. It takes time to fix but is easy to do so.

Phillip Marlowe · March 25th, 2008, 03:10 PM

I have found that it is helpful before you enable multicam setting for tracks that you copy and paste all of the video tracks to a lower location then enable multicam on the tracks from which you copied. that way if you want to pull some b-roll from these tracks they haven't been consolidated into one track and they are still in sync with everything else. just mute them.

also, in response to jeremiah's workflow, I like the idea of cutting out the "bad" shots from each track and then running multicam. the multicam function will not switch to a track that doesn't have any footage on it and will automatically take to one of the others if the clip you are on ends.

March 3rd, 2008, 04:59 AM	#1
Renton Maclachlan Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,180	Multicam editing question I have Vegas 8 and have used the great multicam feature on all my recent projects. However I would like to know how others proceed down the multicam track and make the camera switches. Real time playing and banging away at the various camera numbers as the action speeds by, doesn't seem to me to be the best way to do it, even though it is all I have done so far. I've had to go back and fine tune every transition, which is somewhat daunting. I've been thinking of using the > arrow key to proceed through a frame at a time - more or less - as an alternative. Is there a more leisurely alternative way to do it, other than real time?

March 5th, 2008, 07:39 AM	#10
Edward Troxel Sponsor: JET DV Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Southern Illinois Posts: 7,953	There's LOTS of people using the shuttlepro with Vegas. it can be a very handy device! __________________ Edward Troxel [SCVU] JETDV Scripts/Scripting Tutorials/Excalibur/Montage Magic/Newsletters

March 25th, 2008, 03:10 PM	#15
Phillip Marlowe New Boot Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 9	time sync multicam stuff I have found that it is helpful before you enable multicam setting for tracks that you copy and paste all of the video tracks to a lower location then enable multicam on the tracks from which you copied. that way if you want to pull some b-roll from these tracks they haven't been consolidated into one track and they are still in sync with everything else. just mute them. also, in response to jeremiah's workflow, I like the idea of cutting out the "bad" shots from each track and then running multicam. the multicam function will not switch to a track that doesn't have any footage on it and will automatically take to one of the others if the clip you are on ends.

March 3rd, 2008, 06:07 AM	#2
Mark Stavar Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 95	Renton, If you hold down the 'k' key and then press 'l' (lowercase L), the playback will proceed in slo-mo (25% I think). Press 'l' again (without holding down 'k') -> 50%; 'l' again -> 75%; 'l' again 100%. Same with 'k' -'j' to go in reverse. This might help you if you want to get closer on the go. In my limited experience though, you always need to go back and fine tune a bit. Anyway, give it a go. Ciao, marks

March 3rd, 2008, 01:07 PM	#3
Renton Maclachlan Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,180	Thanks Mark, that sounds like it may be what I'm after.

March 4th, 2008, 04:57 AM	#4
Jeremiah Rickert Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Newberg, Oregon Posts: 494	I recently got done editing a 3 camera project using Vegas. It was a concert that clocked out at about 1hr 30 mins. I dragged the three streams into the timelines and synced them up by finding camera flashes. In Vegas you can actually zoom all the way into a frame view and that was really handy for getting those camera flashes all lined up. In my setup, I had one camera on a wide shot pretty much the whole show, and two hand-held cameras doing closeups. I made sure they they all rolled tape the whole time and didn't ever pause the camera. (essential!) The only re-sync I had to do was around the time of the tape change. I went through the whole concert with the first handheld camera and put cuts (using the split key) to separate out all of the good shots for that camera. (i.e., no shaking, no zooming, no bad focus). I cut away all of the "bad" footage from that angle. I repeated the same for the other handheld camera. Then I dragged the wide shot video track to the "bottom" so the cut-out pieces were on top. (When I cut away the unused parts I actually left the soundtrack on there so the whole thing would stay in sync). I just muted the soundtracks I didn't need. Then I hit play and just watched for good cuts. I put fades on either side of some clips, and others I left as hard cuts. You can actually instinctually "feel" which should be which. I don't know if that's a faster way or not. It wasn't too hard to scroll through and find the good shots, in fact you can cut away huge sections just by going faster than normal speed. In the end, I had a pretty good looking series of cuts all things considered and almost all my bad zooms/shakes/focus problems were covered up. JR

March 4th, 2008, 10:19 AM	#5
Seth Bloombaum Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,420	Jeremiah, thanks for sharing that workflow - sounds good. In contrast, I shot an event with 4 cameras with almost no camera shake (1 dolly cam, one jib, one on sticks, one high-angle locked off). The event was about an hour and fifteen minutes, a Whirling Dervish ceremony. I've done cuts of it using both Vegas Multicam and VASST Ultimate-S, both worked well. For me, U-S is a little easier to go back in and fix up. By comparison with what Jeremiah suggested above, what I did was pretty quick and dirty, but good for a first cut. My advice would be "it depends"! PS. I use J-K-L editing all the time. Both for slow play forward-reverse, as Mark suggested, and for 100% speed and fast forward-reverse. This is enhanced if you go into prefs and change the shuttling speed to 20x (I think the default is 4x). I hardly ever touch my ShuttlePro any more.

March 4th, 2008, 03:50 PM	#6
Renton Maclachlan Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,180	Thanks Jeremiah. But you apparently did not use the multicam feature where you run down your time line viewing all your cameras at once and making your choices on the basis of the best one at the time.

March 4th, 2008, 06:29 PM	#7
Jeremiah Rickert Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Newberg, Oregon Posts: 494	You're correct. Because I didn't have always steady shots with the other two cameras, it was easier to cut away all of the unusable material from the other shots and go from there. If I had 3 or 4 really constantly good shots, then the multi-cam view makes more sense. I wish I'd had about four stable cameras :) If I'd had a live switcher on-site, there probably would've been less cuts overall, because I wouldn't have switched unless there was a steady shot to swtich to. If you get up to about 4 steady cameras, you always have a shot. I only posted my workflow as an example of another way to do it, without using the multi-cam feature.

March 4th, 2008, 08:03 PM	#8
Renton Maclachlan Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,180	I'm just editing a 3 camera shoot (parts are four cameras) the one that prompted the original query, and by using multicam you see your stable and moving shots all at the same time, and so can make your choice of camera. As you don't necessarily know what is coming up, you may have to to back up and redo your choice because the camera you choose at a particular point may start moving too soon after it has been selected, and another one may become stable. I have found using the J K L keys far better than using the Enter key only as I have been doing till now. Thanks again Mark. I pulled out my Vegas 8 Keyboard Command card to see if there are another useful combinations. ctl-shift-D to undo is good. I've also found that at the actual shoot, we were taking too long to compose our shots so the cameras were moving too long. We really need to get to our shot fast and then leave it alone, rather than dawdle around hunting for a finely tuned composition!

March 4th, 2008, 08:39 PM	#9
Jeremiah Rickert Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Newberg, Oregon Posts: 494	Has anyone used one of those USB connected Jog/Shuttle devices? I've thought of going that way. http://cgi.ebay.com/Contour-ShuttleP...QQcmdZViewItem JR

March 5th, 2008, 02:58 PM	#12
Renton Maclachlan Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,180	My original query has been answered by me being pointed to J K L. However, just picking up on Jeremiah's comments about sync'ing. My present project has four video and ten audio tracks and I went to quite some length to get them all sync'd. This involved deciding on what track/s would be my base line to sync all the others to. I chose my Zoom H2 audio tracks as they were clear and continuous right through. As it turned out no other tracks were recording at exactly the same speed. This was not a great issue. I set a marker at the beginning and got the tracks lined up, then went to the end and stretched the others until they lined up also. (It was a bit more complicated that this because none of the video tracks were continuous and each section had to be sync'd separately to the H2 tracks, beginning and end.) Anyway, I got it all so I was satisfied everything was lined up, and made my multicam track and began choosing my camera angles. Low and behold, when I was about an hour in, I start noticing in shots from two of the cameras where I could lip read talent, I was out of sync by 3-4 or 6-9 frames. It was quite noticable. This required re sync'ing each clip on the multlcam track where it was noticable. As some shots were cutaways with no speaking going on, they looked alright. Re sync'ing the clips was not a difficult thing to do. I just lifted a clip onto another vidoe track, moved it the required frames, dragged both ends of the clip back to match the slot it came from and then dropped it back into the slot. This is the second time this has happened with me.

March 5th, 2008, 04:05 PM	#13
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	watch your ripple settings, and it's easy to accidently "nudge" a clip - I found that once I get everything where I want it, I'll use the "group" function to lock them all together - works for me. Also, highly recommend the ShuttlePro - with that on left hand (buttons programmed to taste), mouse on right, hardly ever touch the keyboard...

March 5th, 2008, 05:35 PM	#14
Renton Maclachlan Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,180	Thanks Dave. I use the 'group' function to lock them all also so it must be something else going on. It sure is easy to nudge an event otherwise. Same when doing 'envelopes'. I use the envelope tool now rather than General edit tool as it is so easy to nudge otherwise. I've discovered that to find clips out of sync like this is not the end of the world. It takes time to fix but is easy to do so.