1080i to 24p at DVinfo.net

Hugh Mobley · February 28th, 2008, 11:20 AM

I just took some footage in 1080i on my V1 and captured thru cineform as an avi file and deinterlaced it with cineform. In Vegas 8 I put the clip on the timeline as 24p according to my properties as HDV 1080-24p (1440x1080, 23.976 fps) progressive. I made a mpeg4 clip from it and a mpeg2 dvd. Both clips were the cleanest clips ever for me. always an issue shooting straight 24p then editing it that way. or shooting 1080i and editing that way. I am curious to why, if anyone could shed some light on this.

David Newman · February 28th, 2008, 02:22 PM

Are you saying:

A) Shoot 1080i , deinterlace and convert to 24p AVI is cleaner than
B) shooting 24p and extracting pulldown to 24p AVI?

While only (B) give you the true 24p candance and film like motion blur (180 degree shutter equivelant), (A) will have slightly lower noise as the de-interlacing also acts a little noise filter. Do you think that is what you are seeing?

Hugh Mobley · February 28th, 2008, 09:17 PM

Well, when I saw this clip I was happy, and I have not been happy with most clips shot at 24p, I just tried it on a whim, and I was moving the camera alot trying to keep up with the birds, etc. shooting 24 p would not have given me the same results. I have shot mostly 24p since i got this camera a year ago and frankly have been unsatisfied with most of the clips, because the camera can do the job. If I shoot 24p and have the cam on a tripod and nothings moving, its great. but if I pan or move the camera it is not, I have tried shooting at 48, 100 and above if moving, I didn't like it. So I tried this and I like the result, My dvd of the same clip looks the beat I have ever done especially when I put it on my hd tv, although the dvd is not hd but it looks good. When I have tried 24p I am just not happy with it. here is one of the clips I did: rendered mpeg4
http://www.hughmobley.com/local%20lake.html

here is clip done at 24p and rendered out the same mpeg4
http://www.hughmobley.com/Untitled-1sample.html

24p there is an issue with vertical lines, movement, etc. I don't think all of this is my imagination, but thats why I like to ask the experts their opinion

David Hadden · February 29th, 2008, 12:22 AM

I'm guessing that you're seeing these at full rez too? it looks to me like you're seeing aliasing from re-sizing on some things? maybe??

Make sure you're rendering to Best (the de-interlacing weirdness might make this less noticable because of an unsharpened picture).

Dave

Alex Humphrey · November 14th, 2010, 12:48 PM

yeah, old thread, but just in case. 24p should be at 1/48th shutter. since your doing 60i it's defualting to 1/60th which is generally too fast. Might try 1/30th shutter. I shoot 24p at 1/48th all the time with my JVC gear and do sports and no issues. 1/60th and above it starts looking like Saving Private Ryan combat scenes.

Jeff Harper · November 15th, 2010, 10:33 AM

Hugh, I might be mistaken, but it is possible that like so many of us, you likely don't understand the full meaning of what constitues a film look, and how to shoot effectively in 24p. To get satisfactory results using 24p, you must shoot differently. You must pan differently, etc. etc. etc.

24p requires a different skill set than shooting 60i. You talk about the poor shots when camera is moving and that is the key...camera must move differently.

It is normal for folks to come here (not just you) and complain about how pans "don't look right" etc and feel like something is wrong with the camera.

The camera is fine. The operator just needs to learn how to shoot with these settings.

When 24p first became popular this was a common theme, what's wrong with my camera? 24p is lovely to view when done properly, but there's the rub.

I wish the camera companies would go into more detail in the manuals about to use the equipment properly when shooting in progressive modes.

We have a generation of folks using cameras with features they have no idea how to use properly but it is NOT their fault.

The 24p settting is not a magic button that creates "an amazing film look". We need to understand depth of field, plan our shots, etc., etc. Achieving a film look with a digital camera is not as easy as pushing a button. I wish it were. This is all true, to a greater or lesser degree, with HD in general. Not the depth of field, but the needing to learn the differences and how to shoot within the confines of the medium.

What is most frustrating about the whole thing is most people, when told how much there is to achieving a proper film look, will invariably argue and fuss and STILL try to find a shortcut. I suggest you do some searches on the web and investigate camera techniques for 24p. You will be pleasantly surprised to learn that there are some easy ways to change your technique and obtain excellent results with 24/30p.

I should state in advance that if I misread your post I do apologize if I missed the point.

February 28th, 2008, 11:20 AM	#1
Hugh Mobley Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Placentia, Calif Posts: 549	1080i to 24p I just took some footage in 1080i on my V1 and captured thru cineform as an avi file and deinterlaced it with cineform. In Vegas 8 I put the clip on the timeline as 24p according to my properties as HDV 1080-24p (1440x1080, 23.976 fps) progressive. I made a mpeg4 clip from it and a mpeg2 dvd. Both clips were the cleanest clips ever for me. always an issue shooting straight 24p then editing it that way. or shooting 1080i and editing that way. I am curious to why, if anyone could shed some light on this. __________________ Hugh Mobley www.petplanetvideos.com http://exposureroom.com/members/hmobley.aspx/

February 28th, 2008, 02:22 PM	#2
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Are you saying: A) Shoot 1080i , deinterlace and convert to 24p AVI is cleaner than B) shooting 24p and extracting pulldown to 24p AVI? While only (B) give you the true 24p candance and film like motion blur (180 degree shutter equivelant), (A) will have slightly lower noise as the de-interlacing also acts a little noise filter. Do you think that is what you are seeing? __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

February 28th, 2008, 09:17 PM	#3
Hugh Mobley Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Placentia, Calif Posts: 549	Well, when I saw this clip I was happy, and I have not been happy with most clips shot at 24p, I just tried it on a whim, and I was moving the camera alot trying to keep up with the birds, etc. shooting 24 p would not have given me the same results. I have shot mostly 24p since i got this camera a year ago and frankly have been unsatisfied with most of the clips, because the camera can do the job. If I shoot 24p and have the cam on a tripod and nothings moving, its great. but if I pan or move the camera it is not, I have tried shooting at 48, 100 and above if moving, I didn't like it. So I tried this and I like the result, My dvd of the same clip looks the beat I have ever done especially when I put it on my hd tv, although the dvd is not hd but it looks good. When I have tried 24p I am just not happy with it. here is one of the clips I did: rendered mpeg4 http://www.hughmobley.com/local%20lake.html here is clip done at 24p and rendered out the same mpeg4 http://www.hughmobley.com/Untitled-1sample.html 24p there is an issue with vertical lines, movement, etc. I don't think all of this is my imagination, but thats why I like to ask the experts their opinion __________________ Hugh Mobley www.petplanetvideos.com http://exposureroom.com/members/hmobley.aspx/

November 15th, 2010, 10:33 AM	#6
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Hugh, I might be mistaken, but it is possible that like so many of us, you likely don't understand the full meaning of what constitues a film look, and how to shoot effectively in 24p. To get satisfactory results using 24p, you must shoot differently. You must pan differently, etc. etc. etc. 24p requires a different skill set than shooting 60i. You talk about the poor shots when camera is moving and that is the key...camera must move differently. It is normal for folks to come here (not just you) and complain about how pans "don't look right" etc and feel like something is wrong with the camera. The camera is fine. The operator just needs to learn how to shoot with these settings. When 24p first became popular this was a common theme, what's wrong with my camera? 24p is lovely to view when done properly, but there's the rub. I wish the camera companies would go into more detail in the manuals about to use the equipment properly when shooting in progressive modes. We have a generation of folks using cameras with features they have no idea how to use properly but it is NOT their fault. The 24p settting is not a magic button that creates "an amazing film look". We need to understand depth of field, plan our shots, etc., etc. Achieving a film look with a digital camera is not as easy as pushing a button. I wish it were. This is all true, to a greater or lesser degree, with HD in general. Not the depth of field, but the needing to learn the differences and how to shoot within the confines of the medium. What is most frustrating about the whole thing is most people, when told how much there is to achieving a proper film look, will invariably argue and fuss and STILL try to find a shortcut. I suggest you do some searches on the web and investigate camera techniques for 24p. You will be pleasantly surprised to learn that there are some easy ways to change your technique and obtain excellent results with 24/30p. I should state in advance that if I misread your post I do apologize if I missed the point. __________________ "The horror of what I saw on the timeline cannot be described." Last edited by Jeff Harper; November 15th, 2010 at 01:42 PM.

February 29th, 2008, 12:22 AM	#4
David Hadden Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Fargo, ND Posts: 149	I'm guessing that you're seeing these at full rez too? it looks to me like you're seeing aliasing from re-sizing on some things? maybe?? Make sure you're rendering to Best (the de-interlacing weirdness might make this less noticable because of an unsharpened picture). Dave

November 14th, 2010, 12:48 PM	#5
Alex Humphrey Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: california North and South Posts: 642	yeah, old thread, but just in case. 24p should be at 1/48th shutter. since your doing 60i it's defualting to 1/60th which is generally too fast. Might try 1/30th shutter. I shoot 24p at 1/48th all the time with my JVC gear and do sports and no issues. 1/60th and above it starts looking like Saving Private Ryan combat scenes.