Spot IRE check at DVinfo.net

Randy Strome · February 24th, 2008, 12:03 PM

Is there a function to spot check IRE value's in Vegas 8? Missing it.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · February 25th, 2008, 12:22 AM

Other than the scopes? Or do you mean to lock it down?

Randy Strome · February 25th, 2008, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

Other than the scopes? Or do you mean to lock it down?

Thanks Douglas, yes, is there a function that allows for checking a user selectable area. For instance, on dragging over a portion of an image in photoshop detailed RGB levels info can be obtained about a specifc portion of the image. Scopes are great, just looking for a spot check. Does it exist?

Douglas Spotted Eagle · February 25th, 2008, 08:48 AM

Nope. this is a feature that has been requested from time to time, but there is no pixel-reader or "spot-check" available.
There are third party tools for measuring stills in RGB value, it may be you could install one of those to use an eyedropper in the Vegas preview window, not sure. I just use scopes, and know where/how to look for areas with the playhead parked on a frame. Not pixel-value accurate, but appropriate for most work.

Bill Ravens · February 25th, 2008, 08:58 AM

You gotta be really careful with third party eyedropper tools. A lot of apps, especially 3rd party video players, add video overlay to the display. The value measured by the eyedropper tools includes the adjustments made by video overlay and doesn't truly represent the true RGB value. I really don't have enough confidence in Vegas, right now, to beleive anything a 3rd party eyedropper tool will see.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · February 25th, 2008, 09:28 AM

I'm confused. On one hand, you (correctly) suggest that some third-party apps use overlay, and therefore aren't to be trusted. On the other hand, you suggest you don't have confidence in Vegas. The only thing in Vegas to not have confidence in is the scopes in 32bit mode in MPEG formats, so not sure why Vegas is the point of contention. It's great that you're using Edius, it's a good tool, IMO (We've produced training for Edius), but I fail to see how using Edius equates to Vegas not being worthy of confidence. I'd wager that if Edius offered the level of sampling that Vegas does, you'd see an identical issue. It's unfortunate that the Sony team didn't update the waveform monitor/vectorscope for these new features. If the common method of working in a professional environment is observed by printing bars from the camera is used, you can test values at any time in the stream whether it's .mxf or an uncompressed conversion from an EX1, HDV, or SD video converted to 32bit.

Bill Ravens · February 25th, 2008, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

It's unfortunate that the Sony team didn't update the waveform monitor/vectorscope for these new features. If the common method of working in a professional environment is observed by printing bars from the camera is used, you can test values at any time in the stream whether it's .mxf or an uncompressed conversion from an EX1, HDV, or SD video converted to 32bit.

Spot....

I've been doing exactly this, in order to wrangle the right levels in my rendered output. The conundrum, for me, is that I'm getting conflicting information from the scopes vs. the preview window vs the external monitor window. I'm so confused, myself, I don't know which to believe anymore. I just can't afford, because of delivery schedule, to be generating output that's wrong and have to redo it. I'm sure Vegas is capable of generating the right output, I just can't figure out how to do it. Glenn's papers help, somewhat, but, not entirely.

So, perhaps the most accurate statement I can make, right now, is that I don't have the faith in myself to use Vegas properly. It's WAY too complicated.

Glenn Chan · February 25th, 2008, 11:46 AM

Quote:

The only thing in Vegas to not have confidence in is the scopes in 32bit mode in MPEG formats, so not sure why Vegas is the point of contention.

You could go into the scopes settings and uncheck the "studio RGB" setting. Then it behaves more like before. The scopes need you to tell them what the codecs are doing (essentially).
Certain values may be clipped on the scopes, so they are wrong in that sense. But for broadcast work (in most other situations the scopes clipping doesn't matter), you should really get hardware scopes anyways. The software scopes in NLEs usually have problems (and sometimes this is not the NLE's fault).

2- You could use Vegas' eyedroppers to read off values. e.g. add the Gradient Map filter, turn it off. Take the eyedropper and drag-select an area. It will average those pixels and the RGB value will show up in the FX interface.
Another solution (that's less hassle) would be to use a third-party tool like "Takecolor".

I'm not sure if that's useful for what you're trying to do.

Some of the digital waveform monitors/vectorscopes can read off the Y'CbCr code values of individual pixels.

2b- Video card overlays might affect the readings... I try to keep all overlays turned off so I haven't really tested this. I don't think Vegas' Video Preview is affected by video overlays (whereas DirectShow-based windows might be).

Bill Ravens · February 25th, 2008, 11:52 AM

Glenn..

thanx for hangin' in there on this. I know I can be frustrating, but, this is all causing me a lot of heartache. Sometimes I have a DP or AD sitting looking over my shoulder. They are ex avid editors, so they know what they're looking at. When the scopes look right, and the DP says "... but, the preview window is all washed out", I have a helluva time trying to explain that one can't believe the preview window. Or when the preview looks good but the scopes show I'm outside of the 0-100 IRE range, the DP says the scope isn't right.

So, for now, I'll just avoid the 32 bit mode.

Glenn Chan · February 25th, 2008, 02:02 PM

Those issues could be solved. Although if you had somebody sitting over your shoulder, I probably wouldn't use 32-bit mode (slow).

2- In 8-bit mode, why not use a broadcast monitor?

People will be ok with the video preview looking wrong and the broadcast monitor being right.

Pretty much all video sources decode to studio RGB in 8-bit, while the DV and SDI out solutions should be expecting to receive studio RGB levels. So no conversion is necessary, other than making sure fades go to 16 16 16 RGB black and that computer sources are converted to studio RGB.

The scopes can be correct if you check the studio RGB box under the scopes settings.

Bill Ravens · February 25th, 2008, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn Chan

2- In 8-bit mode, why not use a broadcast monitor?

Pretty much all video sources decode to studio RGB in 8-bit, while the DV and SDI out solutions should be expecting to receive studio RGB levels. So no conversion is necessary, other than making sure fades go to 16 16 16 RGB black and that computer sources are converted to studio RGB.

The scopes can be correct if you check the studio RGB box under the scopes settings.

That's what I'll do. Sometimes I use the b'cast monitor, sometimes I don't. I'll have to be more conscious of using it. I always use the studio RGB checked off in the external monitor. It's when to uncheck it in the scopes that has been sending me astray, I think.

Randy Strome · February 25th, 2008, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

Nope. this is a feature that has been requested from time to time, but there is no pixel-reader or "spot-check" available.

Thanks Douglas (all),

I find it a useful (but not a critical) feature in Photoshop. I especially like the curves window to show a 0-255 reading and a corresponding point on the curve. Makes for some quick and accurate adjustments. If this is under consideration for future updates, consider this my yeah vote.

Jon Fairhurst · February 25th, 2008, 05:48 PM

I would also REALLY like this feature.

Another feature request would be to be able to draw a rectangle on the output (or at least to set LRTB crop values) and get the scopes to work in this area exclusively. That would allow us to easily ignore blanking when looking at histograms. As it is, I've artificially stretched the video just so I can use the scopes as needed.

With 8bpp and 32bpp, SD and HD, 601 and 709, powerful measurement tools are more important than ever.

Bill Ravens · February 25th, 2008, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glenn Chan

2- You could use Vegas' eyedroppers to read off values. e.g. add the Gradient Map filter, turn it off. Take the eyedropper and drag-select an area. It will average those pixels and the RGB value will show up in the FX interface.

Try it! It works!

Randy Strome · February 26th, 2008, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens

Try it! It works!

Yes, it does and thanks for that!

The future feature that I would be looking for would be a bit more powerful. It would alow the user to isolate "areas of concern" by selecting points or regions from different frames thus setting up a value (or set of values) for that reading on an info pane. Similar to marker assignment in Photoshop but with a temporal component. Then when an FX would be used (curves, levels etc), the user could monitor his areas of concern while making the changes. This would save a lot of time, for instance, when you've nailed down your darks in one frame, only to find that you've lost your whites a few seconds down the road.

February 24th, 2008, 12:03 PM	#1
Randy Strome Major Player Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Haiku, HI Posts: 203 Images: 12	Spot IRE check Is there a function to spot check IRE value's in Vegas 8? Missing it.

February 25th, 2008, 12:22 AM	#2
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	Other than the scopes? Or do you mean to lock it down? __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

February 25th, 2008, 08:48 AM	#4
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	Nope. this is a feature that has been requested from time to time, but there is no pixel-reader or "spot-check" available. There are third party tools for measuring stills in RGB value, it may be you could install one of those to use an eyedropper in the Vegas preview window, not sure. I just use scopes, and know where/how to look for areas with the playhead parked on a frame. Not pixel-value accurate, but appropriate for most work. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

February 25th, 2008, 09:28 AM	#6
Douglas Spotted Eagle VASST Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Stockton, UT Posts: 5,648	I'm confused. On one hand, you (correctly) suggest that some third-party apps use overlay, and therefore aren't to be trusted. On the other hand, you suggest you don't have confidence in Vegas. The only thing in Vegas to not have confidence in is the scopes in 32bit mode in MPEG formats, so not sure why Vegas is the point of contention. It's great that you're using Edius, it's a good tool, IMO (We've produced training for Edius), but I fail to see how using Edius equates to Vegas not being worthy of confidence. I'd wager that if Edius offered the level of sampling that Vegas does, you'd see an identical issue. It's unfortunate that the Sony team didn't update the waveform monitor/vectorscope for these new features. If the common method of working in a professional environment is observed by printing bars from the camera is used, you can test values at any time in the stream whether it's .mxf or an uncompressed conversion from an EX1, HDV, or SD video converted to 32bit. __________________ Douglas Spotted Eagle/Spot Author, producer, composer Certified Sony Vegas Trainer http://www.vasst.com

February 25th, 2008, 05:48 PM	#13
Jon Fairhurst Inner Circle Join Date: May 2006 Location: Camas, WA, USA Posts: 5,513	I would also REALLY like this feature. Another feature request would be to be able to draw a rectangle on the output (or at least to set LRTB crop values) and get the scopes to work in this area exclusively. That would allow us to easily ignore blanking when looking at histograms. As it is, I've artificially stretched the video just so I can use the scopes as needed. With 8bpp and 32bpp, SD and HD, 601 and 709, powerful measurement tools are more important than ever. __________________ Jon Fairhurst

February 25th, 2008, 08:58 AM	#5
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	You gotta be really careful with third party eyedropper tools. A lot of apps, especially 3rd party video players, add video overlay to the display. The value measured by the eyedropper tools includes the adjustments made by video overlay and doesn't truly represent the true RGB value. I really don't have enough confidence in Vegas, right now, to beleive anything a 3rd party eyedropper tool will see.

February 25th, 2008, 11:52 AM	#9
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Glenn.. thanx for hangin' in there on this. I know I can be frustrating, but, this is all causing me a lot of heartache. Sometimes I have a DP or AD sitting looking over my shoulder. They are ex avid editors, so they know what they're looking at. When the scopes look right, and the DP says "... but, the preview window is all washed out", I have a helluva time trying to explain that one can't believe the preview window. Or when the preview looks good but the scopes show I'm outside of the 0-100 IRE range, the DP says the scope isn't right. So, for now, I'll just avoid the 32 bit mode.

February 25th, 2008, 02:02 PM	#10
Glenn Chan Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 4,750	Those issues could be solved. Although if you had somebody sitting over your shoulder, I probably wouldn't use 32-bit mode (slow). 2- In 8-bit mode, why not use a broadcast monitor? People will be ok with the video preview looking wrong and the broadcast monitor being right. Pretty much all video sources decode to studio RGB in 8-bit, while the DV and SDI out solutions should be expecting to receive studio RGB levels. So no conversion is necessary, other than making sure fades go to 16 16 16 RGB black and that computer sources are converted to studio RGB. The scopes can be correct if you check the studio RGB box under the scopes settings.