Do we still need cineform? at DVinfo.net

Brian Luce · January 17th, 2008, 06:36 PM

I use cineform with Vegas 6.

QUESTION: Are we at the point with Vegas 8.0 that we can edit mpeg2 natively?

I do some titles, cross dissolves, keyframe panning, a bit of color correction, and the occassional chroma key. I use the JVC HD100.

Bill Ravens · January 17th, 2008, 06:56 PM

Brian..

Vegas 8b still doesn't succesfully always read my native HD110 files. I always record straight to m2t files on an external capture disk. If I try to open the m2t directly in vegas, I get red frames on the timeline. Fortunately, Cineform's HDLink reads my m2t files OK. The red frames occur when there's a hiccup in the timecode on the file. I've filed a support ticket with SMS over this issue, but, they continue to insist the problem is with the HD110, not Vegas.

I would recommend continuing to use CFHD.

Seth Bloombaum · January 18th, 2008, 01:21 AM

7 improved M2T performance over 6 substantially, 8 took it a little bit further.

8 just ate up a project using 4 live M2T tracks that always had red frame & drop outs in 6. I'm currently using 8 on a doc project with all M2T - it's working fine so far with full frame rates (at Best-Full) and no red frames/drop outs on XP SP2 running on a 3GHz Core2 Duo with 2GB RAM. I don't expect the doc project to be as demanding as the 4-track project.

Footage in these projects has originated on Z1, V1 and HD100, captured with Vegas from tape.

I tend to adapt my workflow such that efx are not previewed much until final passes, so I'm not bothered much when CC takes me down to 15fps at Best-Full preview.

For what it's worth. Your mileage may vary.

Brian Luce · January 18th, 2008, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seth Bloombaum

7 improved M2T performance over 6 substantially, 8 took it a little bit further.

For what it's worth. Your mileage may vary.

It's interesting, one would think Vegas would either try and take usall the way there or not at all in terms of native mp2 editing.

Even though I know Vegas is CPU based, I hadn't thought that horsepower would make a difference in the capability to edit Mpeg2 natively. I would expect a dual core to do it faster of course, but still woulda presumed it'd strictly be a code thing.

Seth Bloombaum · January 18th, 2008, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Luce

It's interesting, one would think Vegas would either try and take usall the way there or not at all in terms of native mp2 editing.

Even though I know Vegas is CPU based, I hadn't thought that horsepower would make a difference in the capability to edit Mpeg2 natively. I would expect a dual core to do it faster of course, but still woulda presumed it'd strictly be a code thing.

The better code is helping - that's what's been going on from 6 to 7 to 8.

However, M2T is a very highly compressed format with a very large load on the processor to decompress. Remember, this is hi-def in the same bandwidth as standard-def DV - 13GB/hr, 25Mbps. You've got 4.5 times as many pixels in 1080i HDV as in standard def DV with the same datarate.

Enter Cineform. Without regard for its other advantages, you've got datarates from abt. 25(medium) to 40(high)GB/hr. That equates to 1/3 to 1/2 the processor load for decompression as native M2T.

So, yeah, processor load is a significant issue.

(please excuse fuzzy numbers - they're all close)

David Jasany · January 18th, 2008, 06:53 PM

I'm editing m2t native on the timeline with a Pentium P4 and I'm pretty happy with it. Of course performance drops quickly when the complexity of the project increases with fx, color correction, etc. Most of the time I try to stick with simple transitions and limited fx.

Brian Luce · January 18th, 2008, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Jasany

I'm editing m2t native on the timeline with a Pentium P4 and I'm pretty happy with it. Of course performance drops quickly when the complexity of the project increases with fx, color correction, etc. Most of the time I try to stick with simple transitions and limited fx.

Are you using Vegas 7 or 8?

Paul Cascio · January 18th, 2008, 07:52 PM

Seth, can you explain why a camcorder can encode and decode it in real time, but our computers hiccup?

Carl Middleton · January 18th, 2008, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Cascio

Seth, can you explain why a camcorder can encode and decode it in real time, but our computers hiccup?

Not only is a computer typically doing a LOT of things at once (just take a look at the running processes!) but cameras have dedicated hardware for encoding/decoding. They've got chips dedicated to do what our processor would have to follow instructions to do - it's along the same lines of why we can buy a Kona or Blackmagic and encode to ProRes/Other formats on the fly - they've got dedicated electronics.

Carl

Hugh Mobley · January 18th, 2008, 09:31 PM

Cineform is going to be a real benefit if you want to render the clips a few times like I do, I don't see the degradation in the cineform clips like I do in the m2t clips after being rendered a few times.

David Jasany · January 19th, 2008, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Luce

Are you using Vegas 7 or 8?

I'm using 8b.

Laurence Kingston · January 19th, 2008, 11:48 AM

I use a mix of Cineform and native hdv on my timeline. I see no real need to rerender raw footage into Cineform, but I never rerender into mpeg2 either except for a final Blu-ray or HD DVD master render. I always use Cineform for prerenders and anything that is rerendered at all.

January 17th, 2008, 06:36 PM	#1
Brian Luce Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 2,290	Do we still need cineform? I use cineform with Vegas 6. QUESTION: Are we at the point with Vegas 8.0 that we can edit mpeg2 natively? I do some titles, cross dissolves, keyframe panning, a bit of color correction, and the occassional chroma key. I use the JVC HD100.

January 18th, 2008, 07:52 PM	#8
Paul Cascio Trustee Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Bristol, CT (Home of EPSN) Posts: 1,192	Seth, can you explain why a camcorder can encode and decode it in real time, but our computers hiccup? __________________ Paul Cascio www.pictureframingschool.com

January 18th, 2008, 09:31 PM	#10
Hugh Mobley Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Placentia, Calif Posts: 549	Cineform is going to be a real benefit if you want to render the clips a few times like I do, I don't see the degradation in the cineform clips like I do in the m2t clips after being rendered a few times. __________________ Hugh Mobley www.petplanetvideos.com http://exposureroom.com/members/hmobley.aspx/

January 17th, 2008, 06:56 PM	#2
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Brian.. Vegas 8b still doesn't succesfully always read my native HD110 files. I always record straight to m2t files on an external capture disk. If I try to open the m2t directly in vegas, I get red frames on the timeline. Fortunately, Cineform's HDLink reads my m2t files OK. The red frames occur when there's a hiccup in the timecode on the file. I've filed a support ticket with SMS over this issue, but, they continue to insist the problem is with the HD110, not Vegas. I would recommend continuing to use CFHD.

January 18th, 2008, 01:21 AM	#3
Seth Bloombaum Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,420	7 improved M2T performance over 6 substantially, 8 took it a little bit further. 8 just ate up a project using 4 live M2T tracks that always had red frame & drop outs in 6. I'm currently using 8 on a doc project with all M2T - it's working fine so far with full frame rates (at Best-Full) and no red frames/drop outs on XP SP2 running on a 3GHz Core2 Duo with 2GB RAM. I don't expect the doc project to be as demanding as the 4-track project. Footage in these projects has originated on Z1, V1 and HD100, captured with Vegas from tape. I tend to adapt my workflow such that efx are not previewed much until final passes, so I'm not bothered much when CC takes me down to 15fps at Best-Full preview. For what it's worth. Your mileage may vary.

January 18th, 2008, 06:53 PM	#6
David Jasany Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: North Carolina Posts: 313	I'm editing m2t native on the timeline with a Pentium P4 and I'm pretty happy with it. Of course performance drops quickly when the complexity of the project increases with fx, color correction, etc. Most of the time I try to stick with simple transitions and limited fx.

January 19th, 2008, 11:48 AM	#12
Laurence Kingston Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Clermont, FL. Posts: 941	I use a mix of Cineform and native hdv on my timeline. I see no real need to rerender raw footage into Cineform, but I never rerender into mpeg2 either except for a final Blu-ray or HD DVD master render. I always use Cineform for prerenders and anything that is rerendered at all.