Headphones for Editing

Jeff Harper · December 28th, 2007, 09:41 PM

Interesting points you are making. Matthew's comment brings to mind that I had heard that the 80's rock act "The Cars" mixed on car audio speakers, as other rock acts have done, especially rappers.

I have a killer set of speakers on my workstation and I am always disappointed to hear my work on a customers crappy TV. I have learned to adjust eq setting on occasion because many TVs cannot handle the bass of some soundtracks and will rattle.

Ian Stark · December 29th, 2007, 05:08 AM

Guys, here's a book worth reading that covers everything we've been talking about and a ton more - including choosing and using speakers/headphones and the pros and cons of different solutions. It's pitched as an introductory book but it goes into plenty of depth, including some very useful theory.

'Producing Great Sound for Digital Video' (second edition, 2003)
Author Jay Rose
Published by CMP Books in their DV Expert series
ISBN 0-87930-597-5
CD included

http://www.dplay.com/book/pgs/ (one of many websites that talk abut this book)

http://www.amazon.com/Producing-Grea...pd_sim_b_img_2

There's a discussion thread here that presents some balanced views about the book and suggests some alternatives: http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=6777

And finally, here is a link to Jay's other book, Audio Post Production for Digital Video. I can't comment o nthis one as I haven't read it : http://www.dplay.com/book/app/index.html

Happy reading!

Ian . . .

p.s. I never knew that about The Cars! As for rappers doing it, that must be why I can't stand rap music ;-)

Gerry Gallegos · December 29th, 2007, 12:21 PM

The secret is to listen to a lot of material you are familiar with, either CD or DVD's see how they sound in our monitoring rig and try to emulate that tonal balance (repeat this step a lot). This will get you accustomed to how YOUR monitors are supposed to sound (learn them with NO EQ, flat!!!) otherwise youre cloaking their true sound.

a very common mistake very often made is trying (usually unconsciously) to make low budget monitors (or any budget for that mater) sound like the Genelecs or something along those lines, at the big studio. this just simply never works. you have to learn the intricacies of your particular set-up, whether its monitors or headphones. and act accordingly.

As a retired mixing engineer, every time I went into a different studio, the first thing I would do is play a few song that I was very familiar with, in order to familiarize myself with the acoustical behavior of their monitors and more importantly their room, and as the day wore on I would go back constantly to my referance CDs to make sure I was still in the range I needed to be in.

One of the lessons I learned is that pretty much any reasonable monitor method is valid "IF" you learn their character whether its headphones or monitors. I have seen people save up to get the big expensive monitors that was the flavor of the month only to get crappy mixes, because they never took the time to learn them. or simply didnt know that they had to learn them, and assumed that just because they just paid 5k for a set of speakers that all of the sudden they will be able to get good mixes.

Just some fuel for thought.

James Hooey · December 29th, 2007, 02:50 PM

Just out of curiosity, how many people remember Yamaha NS-10's???

:)

Seth Bloombaum · December 29th, 2007, 03:15 PM

How about Auratone 5c?

The NS-10 were commonly found on the bridge of every sound studio mixer as representative of "what will it sound like with a small box? (speaker, that is)". Something like a good car stereo.

The Auratones were found in many tv/radio suites, as representative of "what will it sound like through a TV?"

These are still in the class of reference monitors. The primary difference between them and real car stereos, home stereos, home theater, etc. is that all the consumer gear is designed to make the program sound good. That is, consumer gear typically colors the sound in pleasing ways. Which is fine for general listening, but not so good for us who really want to know what the project sounds like without additional coloration by some consumer manufacturer who thinks that all listeners like bass they can feel and lots of highs...

Gerry Gallegos · December 29th, 2007, 03:42 PM

My experience with the NS10s is what lead me to my theory. I purchased my NS10s back in 86' because thats what I saw in the pictures of studios, it took me a bit to realize that I shouldnt mix on them and expect them to sound like a typical home stereo (with the smile EQ curve), but i was starting out then. once some one explained (and showed) me how they are supposed to sound, then it was like the sky opened up and all of the sudden my mixes got much better. I cant count how many people I have seen using these for the same reason I had them, without knowing them, and coming up with bad results as well. Little did I know the speakers I had purchased for $229 back in the day I would end up selling for $750 almost 20 years later, with original drivers (never blew a driver). I am ashamed that I did sell them to some one who wanted them for the same reason I bought them back then as well... but I did explain how to get to know them, and he bought my old Crown D300 to go with them as well.

memories...

Marty Baggen · January 1st, 2008, 02:13 PM

Sennheiser HD 600 is my headphone of choice... spendy, but flat.

Headphone fatigue, like any other sonic fatigue, is caused by excessive volumes. Learn to mix at low to moderate levels... which is quieter than you think. It's just more difficult to discipline your volumes with headphones.

Mix for 30 mins, rest for 15.

If you have a SPL meter, try about 85db... and stay with it for a week or two. Pretty soon you adjust.

It doesn't matter what you monitor with, or what you reference to... if you monitor too loud, your mix will reflect the inverse of your ear's sensitivity at higher sound levels... most obvious is bass response. Loud monitoring equals tinny mixes. Try it sometime.

December 29th, 2007, 05:08 AM	#17
Ian Stark Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hampshire, UK Posts: 2,237	Guys, here's a book worth reading that covers everything we've been talking about and a ton more - including choosing and using speakers/headphones and the pros and cons of different solutions. It's pitched as an introductory book but it goes into plenty of depth, including some very useful theory. 'Producing Great Sound for Digital Video' (second edition, 2003) Author Jay Rose Published by CMP Books in their DV Expert series ISBN 0-87930-597-5 CD included http://www.dplay.com/book/pgs/ (one of many websites that talk abut this book) http://www.amazon.com/Producing-Grea...pd_sim_b_img_2 There's a discussion thread here that presents some balanced views about the book and suggests some alternatives: http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=6777 And finally, here is a link to Jay's other book, Audio Post Production for Digital Video. I can't comment o nthis one as I haven't read it : http://www.dplay.com/book/app/index.html Happy reading! Ian . . . p.s. I never knew that about The Cars! As for rappers doing it, that must be why I can't stand rap music ;-) __________________ www.vit-media.com www.classicmachinefilms.co.uk

December 29th, 2007, 12:21 PM	#18
Gerry Gallegos Major Player Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 262	quick tip The secret is to listen to a lot of material you are familiar with, either CD or DVD's see how they sound in our monitoring rig and try to emulate that tonal balance (repeat this step a lot). This will get you accustomed to how YOUR monitors are supposed to sound (learn them with NO EQ, flat!!!) otherwise youre cloaking their true sound. a very common mistake very often made is trying (usually unconsciously) to make low budget monitors (or any budget for that mater) sound like the Genelecs or something along those lines, at the big studio. this just simply never works. you have to learn the intricacies of your particular set-up, whether its monitors or headphones. and act accordingly. As a retired mixing engineer, every time I went into a different studio, the first thing I would do is play a few song that I was very familiar with, in order to familiarize myself with the acoustical behavior of their monitors and more importantly their room, and as the day wore on I would go back constantly to my referance CDs to make sure I was still in the range I needed to be in. One of the lessons I learned is that pretty much any reasonable monitor method is valid "IF" you learn their character whether its headphones or monitors. I have seen people save up to get the big expensive monitors that was the flavor of the month only to get crappy mixes, because they never took the time to learn them. or simply didnt know that they had to learn them, and assumed that just because they just paid 5k for a set of speakers that all of the sudden they will be able to get good mixes. Just some fuel for thought.

December 29th, 2007, 02:50 PM	#19
James Hooey Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Bruce Pennisula, Canada Posts: 316	Just out of curiosity, how many people remember Yamaha NS-10's??? :) __________________ For Stock Footage http://www.revostock.com/ViewProfile.html?&ID=4811 My Website http://www.soundprostudios.com

December 28th, 2007, 09:41 PM	#16
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	Interesting points you are making. Matthew's comment brings to mind that I had heard that the 80's rock act "The Cars" mixed on car audio speakers, as other rock acts have done, especially rappers. I have a killer set of speakers on my workstation and I am always disappointed to hear my work on a customers crappy TV. I have learned to adjust eq setting on occasion because many TVs cannot handle the bass of some soundtracks and will rattle.

December 29th, 2007, 03:15 PM	#20
Seth Bloombaum Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 3,420	How about Auratone 5c? The NS-10 were commonly found on the bridge of every sound studio mixer as representative of "what will it sound like with a small box? (speaker, that is)". Something like a good car stereo. The Auratones were found in many tv/radio suites, as representative of "what will it sound like through a TV?" These are still in the class of reference monitors. The primary difference between them and real car stereos, home stereos, home theater, etc. is that all the consumer gear is designed to make the program sound good. That is, consumer gear typically colors the sound in pleasing ways. Which is fine for general listening, but not so good for us who really want to know what the project sounds like without additional coloration by some consumer manufacturer who thinks that all listeners like bass they can feel and lots of highs...

December 29th, 2007, 03:42 PM	#21
Gerry Gallegos Major Player Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 262	My experience with the NS10s is what lead me to my theory. I purchased my NS10s back in 86' because thats what I saw in the pictures of studios, it took me a bit to realize that I shouldnt mix on them and expect them to sound like a typical home stereo (with the smile EQ curve), but i was starting out then. once some one explained (and showed) me how they are supposed to sound, then it was like the sky opened up and all of the sudden my mixes got much better. I cant count how many people I have seen using these for the same reason I had them, without knowing them, and coming up with bad results as well. Little did I know the speakers I had purchased for $229 back in the day I would end up selling for $750 almost 20 years later, with original drivers (never blew a driver). I am ashamed that I did sell them to some one who wanted them for the same reason I bought them back then as well... but I did explain how to get to know them, and he bought my old Crown D300 to go with them as well. memories...

January 1st, 2008, 02:13 PM	#22
Marty Baggen Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: monroe, or Posts: 572	Sennheiser HD 600 is my headphone of choice... spendy, but flat. Headphone fatigue, like any other sonic fatigue, is caused by excessive volumes. Learn to mix at low to moderate levels... which is quieter than you think. It's just more difficult to discipline your volumes with headphones. Mix for 30 mins, rest for 15. If you have a SPL meter, try about 85db... and stay with it for a week or two. Pretty soon you adjust. It doesn't matter what you monitor with, or what you reference to... if you monitor too loud, your mix will reflect the inverse of your ear's sensitivity at higher sound levels... most obvious is bass response. Loud monitoring equals tinny mixes. Try it sometime.