Its another Vegas 8 bug -> Rendering

Robert Wheeler · October 31st, 2007, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Chaboud

As far as Robert's problems go, those almost all sound like storage device issues. Either drive failure, controller failure, controller driver bug, or a bad cable. The way that apps talk to disks hasn't really changed between XP and Vista. Vista allows for a few more tricks (like I/O prioritization), but I don't know of Vegas using any of those.
-Matt

I can't disagree more with this. My machine is in good health, but if it was any of these issues, it would have obvious in earlier revisions of the software.

David Rice · October 31st, 2007, 06:22 PM

I had three failed renders this week using Pro 8. All simple DV to DV projects. However, I just discovered that I have a failing hard drive. I Replaced the hard drive, and I have since had 5 good renders. Faster too!

Robert Wheeler · November 3rd, 2007, 01:25 PM

I'm so shocked by how many occurrences of failing drives there seems to be on here. I may be stating the obvious, but are you guys actually cooling your computers correctly? If you stick a £3 fan in the front of your machines (directly in front of the drives) and turn it up high, your drive temperature will drop by around 10-20 degrees.

If your drives are hot to touch, then you have a problem. Simple as that.

Jeff Harper · November 3rd, 2007, 01:37 PM

You hit on an important issue, Robert. In a previous PC I ran an excessive number of internal HDs (6) and had two fail on me before I realized they needed extra cooling.

Robert Wheeler · November 3rd, 2007, 01:43 PM

If you have a drive directly below another drive in a system, then it will run about 9-10 degrees hotter that the one above no matter what you do. Use a big spacious case and run lots of fans inside. While noise can be an issue, we are in the era of wireless and digital connections and machines can quite easily be placed in another room, or even in dedicated refrigerated unit to make sure things are reliable.

David Rice · November 3rd, 2007, 01:48 PM

My failed drive was a very old Western Digital external drive. I only use Seagate external drives now. So far no problems. I have rendered 12 projects this week since dumping the old drive. Perfect Renders every time.

Robert Wheeler · November 3rd, 2007, 01:51 PM

This is the problem with external drives though - they are universally very poorly cooled. That is why they always feel so warm and have such bulky cases. They are focused on trying to draw heat way from the drive through convection in the case, but they are never as good as in an open area with air blown over them. It is the constant heating and cooling of the drive that pulls the intricate hardware out of line and causes unreliability and eventually hard disk crashes.

Ian Stark · November 3rd, 2007, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Wheeler

I may be stating the obvious, but are you guys actually cooling your computers correctly?

Judging from David's location, I don't imagine cooling is a problem. ;-)

On a more serious note, with the exception of the Titler I have found 8 to be MORE stable than previous versions. Also enjoyed marginally faster rendering. What am I doing (or not doing) that others aren't (or are)? Or, more to the point, what do I have on my system that others don't? And even more to the point, why are hardened users like Edward and Spot (and so on) not reporting problems?

And to comment on other points raised in this thread:

Cracked versions of 8 appeared one day after I bought the upgrade - which was on the day the upgrade came out. Yes, I looked. And because cracked versions often use 'fiddled with' versions of the core exe or dll's they are prone to instability. Yes, I know these things (I was the sales director for Europe's most successful privately owned software house (at the time) for many years before landing in the video world. You get to know about pirated software!). Not suggesting anyone here is using cracked versions, just making the point about how quickly these illegal copies surface.

Robert, should your comment be "if they are TOO hot to touch you have a problem"? Having used system temp monitoring software for a while, I can say that my drives are ALWAYS hot to touch but, at least according to the monitoring s/w, they are within tolerable levels. As you suggest, I put a cheap household fan in front of my system during the summer, just in case (also keeps my legs cool). Internally, my PC has more fans than Heather Mills (four).

Matthew, your "think carefuly before you answer" comment suggests you know something or are trying to catch us out! Care to share, Especially as no-one has taken the bait?

Robert Wheeler · November 3rd, 2007, 03:05 PM

Well my version is completely legitimate, so that puts that theory to bed. I don't actually think that the crackers would need to touch the trusted platform software, because as far as I know, this is not actually enabled yet. You would require some kind of dedicated chip in the machine to make it work and hence become a "trusted platform".

The kind of protection used in Vegas currently is very easy to crack. It requires very little reverse engineering.

I remember when Acid first came out, the protection was so weak, a friend of mine cracked it without actually touching any of the code, just by using the operating system. Sonic Foundry released a mysterious revision the day after he published the method.

It is also worth pointing out, most of the best coders and developers were at one point or another crackers. Back in the days of groups such as Radium, even if you had the official version of a plug in, you would be daft not to have the cracked version, as they did so much work to strip out pointless protection routines, and fix other bugs and performance bottlenecks. For instance, for a long time the best MP3 codec around was an official licensed codec that Radium got their hands on and totally optimized.

Robert Wheeler · November 3rd, 2007, 03:14 PM

Oops, nearly forgot, when I referred to a fan at the front of the case, I meant a *computer case fan* in the fixture in front of the drive bays. Ideally two case fans in the front fixture.

This is not possible on all cases, but on those it is, you normally have to remove a few extra screws to get the front panel of the case off and then removed some other parts around the power switch to get the fans in. They should be connected to fan ports on the motherboard, but if noise is not an issue and if the fans can take the power and you have the right adapters, then connect them straight to molex power connections and let them blast at full power at all times.

Ian Stark · November 3rd, 2007, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Wheeler

Well my version is completely legitimate, so that puts that theory to bed.

In your case, yes, but that only puts it to bed in your case! We both (it seems) know that there are enough second-rate crackers out there to produce unstable versions - not talking about trusted platform issues here (way beyond me), just reverse engineering the exe or dll's that contain the protection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Wheeler

when I referred to a fan at the front of the case, I meant a *computer case fan*

Er, yep, gathered that! My (poor) attempt at humour. Clearly missed! And before anyone mentions it, yes I am sure Ms Mills has more than four fans.

But then again, it IS Saturday night and we all should be out doing other less nerdy stuff!

Robert Wheeler · November 3rd, 2007, 06:38 PM

I forgot to clarify my point about the cracked version of Vegas 8. The software is actually identical to the software you or I have. All they do is write a serial generator. It makes a serial that you enter at install, then you choose the register from another computer option and then you use the authorization code it automatically generates at the same time.

So that rules out a crack making it unstable because all it does is come up with acceptable figures for the software.

Ian Stark · November 4th, 2007, 02:21 AM

Well it would seem I know less about cracked software than I thought! And I have zero experience of cracked versions of Vegas anyway so I will bow to your expertise in the field!

Renton Maclachlan · November 4th, 2007, 03:00 AM

I have just last week upgraded my computer so that with a render that took 16 odd hours on my old machine (1.8g) with V7, now takes 2 hr 12mins on the new with V8.

Because of over-looked errors in my project :-( !!! I have had to render the same project 3 times.

V8 has not missed a beat in any editing or rendering I have done so far.

Robert Wheeler · November 4th, 2007, 06:37 AM

Hmm, just had a dig around and it looks like there is a crack, but there is also a crackless backdoor around the standard released version. The cracked version sounds like it exhibits some basic functionality problems, with missing transitions and effects. So keep an eye out for odd questions to that effect!

November 4th, 2007, 02:21 AM	#43
Ian Stark Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Hampshire, UK Posts: 2,237	Well it would seem I know less about cracked software than I thought! And I have zero experience of cracked versions of Vegas anyway so I will bow to your expertise in the field! __________________ www.vit-media.com www.classicmachinefilms.co.uk

October 31st, 2007, 06:22 PM	#32
David Rice Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sitka Alaska Posts: 470	I had three failed renders this week using Pro 8. All simple DV to DV projects. However, I just discovered that I have a failing hard drive. I Replaced the hard drive, and I have since had 5 good renders. Faster too!

November 3rd, 2007, 01:25 PM	#33
Robert Wheeler Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hertfordshire Posts: 118	I'm so shocked by how many occurrences of failing drives there seems to be on here. I may be stating the obvious, but are you guys actually cooling your computers correctly? If you stick a £3 fan in the front of your machines (directly in front of the drives) and turn it up high, your drive temperature will drop by around 10-20 degrees. If your drives are hot to touch, then you have a problem. Simple as that.

November 3rd, 2007, 01:37 PM	#34
Jeff Harper Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 8,425	You hit on an important issue, Robert. In a previous PC I ran an excessive number of internal HDs (6) and had two fail on me before I realized they needed extra cooling.

November 3rd, 2007, 01:43 PM	#35
Robert Wheeler Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hertfordshire Posts: 118	If you have a drive directly below another drive in a system, then it will run about 9-10 degrees hotter that the one above no matter what you do. Use a big spacious case and run lots of fans inside. While noise can be an issue, we are in the era of wireless and digital connections and machines can quite easily be placed in another room, or even in dedicated refrigerated unit to make sure things are reliable.

November 3rd, 2007, 01:48 PM	#36
David Rice Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sitka Alaska Posts: 470	My failed drive was a very old Western Digital external drive. I only use Seagate external drives now. So far no problems. I have rendered 12 projects this week since dumping the old drive. Perfect Renders every time.

November 3rd, 2007, 01:51 PM	#37
Robert Wheeler Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hertfordshire Posts: 118	This is the problem with external drives though - they are universally very poorly cooled. That is why they always feel so warm and have such bulky cases. They are focused on trying to draw heat way from the drive through convection in the case, but they are never as good as in an open area with air blown over them. It is the constant heating and cooling of the drive that pulls the intricate hardware out of line and causes unreliability and eventually hard disk crashes.

November 3rd, 2007, 03:05 PM	#39
Robert Wheeler Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hertfordshire Posts: 118	Well my version is completely legitimate, so that puts that theory to bed. I don't actually think that the crackers would need to touch the trusted platform software, because as far as I know, this is not actually enabled yet. You would require some kind of dedicated chip in the machine to make it work and hence become a "trusted platform". The kind of protection used in Vegas currently is very easy to crack. It requires very little reverse engineering. I remember when Acid first came out, the protection was so weak, a friend of mine cracked it without actually touching any of the code, just by using the operating system. Sonic Foundry released a mysterious revision the day after he published the method. It is also worth pointing out, most of the best coders and developers were at one point or another crackers. Back in the days of groups such as Radium, even if you had the official version of a plug in, you would be daft not to have the cracked version, as they did so much work to strip out pointless protection routines, and fix other bugs and performance bottlenecks. For instance, for a long time the best MP3 codec around was an official licensed codec that Radium got their hands on and totally optimized.

November 3rd, 2007, 03:14 PM	#40
Robert Wheeler Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hertfordshire Posts: 118	Oops, nearly forgot, when I referred to a fan at the front of the case, I meant a computer case fan in the fixture in front of the drive bays. Ideally two case fans in the front fixture. This is not possible on all cases, but on those it is, you normally have to remove a few extra screws to get the front panel of the case off and then removed some other parts around the power switch to get the fans in. They should be connected to fan ports on the motherboard, but if noise is not an issue and if the fans can take the power and you have the right adapters, then connect them straight to molex power connections and let them blast at full power at all times.

November 3rd, 2007, 06:38 PM	#42
Robert Wheeler Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hertfordshire Posts: 118	I forgot to clarify my point about the cracked version of Vegas 8. The software is actually identical to the software you or I have. All they do is write a serial generator. It makes a serial that you enter at install, then you choose the register from another computer option and then you use the authorization code it automatically generates at the same time. So that rules out a crack making it unstable because all it does is come up with acceptable figures for the software.

November 4th, 2007, 03:00 AM	#44
Renton Maclachlan Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,180	I have just last week upgraded my computer so that with a render that took 16 odd hours on my old machine (1.8g) with V7, now takes 2 hr 12mins on the new with V8. Because of over-looked errors in my project :-( !!! I have had to render the same project 3 times. V8 has not missed a beat in any editing or rendering I have done so far.

November 4th, 2007, 06:37 AM	#45
Robert Wheeler Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hertfordshire Posts: 118	Hmm, just had a dig around and it looks like there is a crack, but there is also a crackless backdoor around the standard released version. The cracked version sounds like it exhibits some basic functionality problems, with missing transitions and effects. So keep an eye out for odd questions to that effect!