Fingers crossed Pro 8 cures black frame bug

[Tony Spring]

I'm keeping my fingers AND toes crossed that Vegas 8 doesn't have the black frame bug on .m2t files, although DSE is convinced the problem is hardware based so maybe it wont cure it...

[Danny Fye]

Originally Posted by Tony Spring

I'm keeping my fingers AND toes crossed that Vegas 8 doesn't have the black frame bug on .m2t files, although DSE is convinced the problem is hardware based so maybe it wont cure it...

Well, while I have been using Vegas 7, I have had 3 different systems.

First one was an old Pentium 4 2.8 giggle hertz (Grin) with slow 1.5 gig of ram. It had a lot of problems with the black frames. Especially with multi-cam work.

Second one has a Core 2 Dual E6420 2.13Ghz with 2 gig of DDR2 667 (PC2 5300) ram. Only thing I re-used from the first system was the video card. It had the black frames problem but no where near as bad as the first system. In fact I almost thought the problem was cured.

Third system has a Core 2 Quad Q6600 2.4GHz with 4 gig of DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) ram. New video card (HIS Hightech H165Q512N-R Radeon X1650 512MB 128-bit GDDR2 PCI Express x16 CrossFire Supported Video Card) with this system. If I use full preview while using an external HD tv I may get the black frames. If I change to any other preview level the black frames will disappear. In other words I have to push the third system very hard to get the black frames. And it is not always possible to get the black frames.

On both systems 2 and 3 I can load a project after a fresh restart and not see any black frames. System one would improve after a restart but still would have the black frames.

From what I have studied about this and how Vegas works with HDV, Vegas caches the video to ram to make it play faster and smoother. I think the black frame problem is most likely because the system either can’t handle it and/or there may be some kind of timing issue with the ram that would otherwise not be noticed because Vegas is pushing the ram to its max by using it as a cache.

I strongly suspect that even my E6420 system would do better if it had better ram installed on it.

On system one, I could change the video preview from ‘good’ to ‘preview-auto’ and sometimes the black frames would simply disappear. One time while fiddling with it, the black frames would move to a different location. Most times the black frames would show up in the render. Especially with system one.

What I am trying to determine is how much this problem is related to how much power a system has vs how well built it is. As in how well matched the parts of the system are as well as the quality of the parts. Especially and in this case how well the ram matches the rest of the system and the quality of the ram.

I think DSE is correct about there being a hardware issue. I sincerely doubt if it has anything to do with the video card though. I think it has to do with Vegas using the ram as cache for the HD video and some systems simply cannot handle it.

So to answer the original question and to quit rambling theories and ideas out loud to the world, ;) I suspect that if the part of Vegas 8 that works with the HDV preview using cache to ram is the same as in Vegas 7 then the black frames problem may still be there. :(

One of the new features of Vegas 8 is it is supposed to have better preview capabilities. Will that help? When people get Vegas 8 we'll find out.

I sincerely hope this helps,

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

[Danny Fye]

Good news. I loaded a 90 minute *.m2t file into VP8 and there no black frames. Also it did not crash while building the peaks.

It is real 'snappy' in how it loads the videos.

I hope you get the same positive results that I got.

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

[David Jasany]

I've never seen the black frame problem in V7. But, I just read in the Sony forum someone experienced the black frame problem in V8.

[Danny Fye]

Originally Posted by David Jasany

I've never seen the black frame problem in V7. But, I just read in the Sony forum someone experienced the black frame problem in V8.

With my newest system the problem was significantly reduced in V7. In fact almost gone. The way VP8 works with my new system it is gone.

Also considering it was worst with my oldest system says that this is a hard ware problem and not a software problem and/or a problem with the way Vegas 7 and Vegas Pro 8 works with certain hardware configurations. The solution is Cineform Neo HD or new hardware.

http://www.cineform.com/products/NeoHD.htm

At least the build peaks bug (which was a software bug) is fixed.

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

[Tony Spring]

Originally Posted by Danny Fye

Good news. I loaded a 90 minute *.m2t file into VP8 and there no black frames. Also it did not crash while building the peaks.

It is real 'snappy' in how it loads the videos.

I hope you get the same positive results that I got.

Edited some footage from a 4 camera wedding shoot yesterday and haven't seen any black frames yet! I really don't want to go back to using Neo HDV cos the preview runs too slowly.

[Danny Fye]

Originally Posted by David Jasany

I've never seen the black frame problem in V7. But, I just read in the Sony forum someone experienced the black frame problem in V8.

I looked there and didn't see any posts or threads where someone had the black frames problem with VP8.

Do you have a link to the posts and threads?

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

[Paul Fierlinger]

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/...937&Replies=14

[Tony Spring]

Originally Posted by Tony Spring

Edited some footage from a 4 camera wedding shoot yesterday and haven't seen any black frames yet! I really don't want to go back to using Neo HDV cos the preview runs too slowly.

I spoke too soon, saw several black frame instances when editing yesterday, haven't rendered yet though to see if they're still there then.

Looks like I'm going back to NEO HDV with it's 6fps preview when veiwing 4 cams at once.

I know this black frame problem only happens on some PCs but I still consider it a Vegas bug.

[Danny Fye]

Originally Posted by Tony Spring

I spoke too soon, saw several black frame instances when editing yesterday, haven't rendered yet though to see if they're still there then.

Looks like I'm going back to NEO HDV with it's 6fps preview when veiwing 4 cams at once.

I know this black frame problem only happens on some PCs but I still consider it a Vegas bug.

There is an unlikely possibility that I may have spoken too soon as well but so far I haven’t found any black frames using VP8. I did a 90 minute test with great results and I will do some more tests this weekend with multi-cam.

One thing I do know for sure, Vegas does use memory to cache the video so as to get smoother playback with *.m2t files. My old Pentium 4 2.8 ghz system had a lot of black frame problems. My second system with an E64020 and 2 gig of DDR2 667 (PC2 5300) memory had a lot less black frames. In fact problem almost solved. My newest system with a quad core and 4 gig of DDR2 800 ram the black frames are 99.99% gone. All this with Vegas 7. With VP8 being very snappy while it is loading videos, the black frames seem to be 100% gone. I haven’t tried VP8 with the older systems yet.

Note: On any of the systems, I have to make them work extra hard to get those black frames. I usually got them when doing multi-cam work and/or when making the preview best with a larger view. My newest system with Vegas 7 had to be set to preview full with a HD tv as a second display before I would see any black frames. Any lower settings on the preview and the black frames were gone. And I didn’t fiddle with the Dynamic Ram Preview settings. With VP8 and my newest system I did not get the black frames with any type of preview.

My current conclusion to this problem is that in order to get a smoother playback of *.m2t files, Vegas uses ram as a cache to do so. If the system is not up to par and/or if the ram is not up to par then black frames could be introduced. Also if there is a timing issue with the ram, that could cause the black frames. Poor over-clocking procedures may also cause the black frames especially if the ram is pushed beyond it’s capabilities.

Using three different systems with different capabilities and power I noticed that the more powerful and well built the system is the less likely it would have the black frames. Also if I do editing with a fresh boot and keep the background stuff quiet then it would also be less likely to have the black frames even on the weakest system.

Now, this is my current conclusion of what is causing this problem. One more problem is that many of those who are experiencing this issue are not specifying the specs of their systems. I am confident that once all these specs are made known that my current conclusion of the problem will prove to be valid.

I sincerely doubt if a pacific bug can be found in Vegas that can be fixed to solve this problem. This is definitely not a bug in Vegas. If it was then most everyone who uses *.m2t files would be reporting problems. The problem is that some hardware does not handle Vegas caching of the video properly.

I sincerely hope this helps.

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

[Ronny Hofsoy]

This is a little off topic, but still somewhat related issue.

I had some problems with specific m2t files, causing Vegas 7 to crash while building peaks. I was forced to replace the 30 min. m2t file with a file that was checked/repaired by a 3rd party tool. Not even knowing what other problems the original file caused in vegas.

It seem that Vegas 8 have 'fixed' this but HOW do Vegas 8 overcome the obvious errors within that file. Is it repairing it 'live' or just not care about the errors anymore. If that is the case, what would the final product look like, not even knowing that there were problems with the file.

Can someone with deep knowledge of the Vegas 8 fill in some blanks here.

The reason for asking is this: Should we begin to check every m2t files for errors before adding them to vegas, or let vegas decide if the quality is good enough (either by repairing it or crash). Have not seen any m2t file error reports within vegas. With a 3rd party tool you can at least see where the errors are.

I might be wrong, Vegas IS my favourite NLE but not knowing my ways around in it make me a little nervous. So I guess I still will try to learn as much as possible.

I dont know if this is really an issue at all, but please let me know.

[Tony Spring]

Originally Posted by Danny Fye

I sincerely doubt if a pacific bug can be found in Vegas that can be fixed to solve this problem. This is definitely not a bug in Vegas. If it was then most everyone who uses *.m2t files would be reporting problems. The problem is that some hardware does not handle Vegas caching of the video properly.

I sincerely hope this helps.

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

Thanks for the info Danny but surely Vegas should work properly with .m2t files on ANY good PC, I've got a Mesh quad core PC with 4gb ram. If it's not a bug in Vegas it's a design fault with Vegas.