Black frames driving me mad! at DVinfo.net

Tony Spring · August 20th, 2007, 03:21 AM

I'm going to have to give up trying to edit HDV .m2t files in vegas 7d cos of the 2 black frame bug. I'll have to edit using cineform .avi intermediates and only do the final render to .m2t. I assume this will cure the problem. Let's hope vegas 8 doesn't have this bug...

Joe Busch · August 20th, 2007, 03:55 AM

What "bug" ... I've been editing in .m2t since January with no problems at all... 7.0e...

Daniel Browning · August 20th, 2007, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Spring

I'm going to have to give up trying to edit HDV .m2t files in vegas 7d cos of the 2 black frame bug. I'll have to edit using cineform .avi intermediates and only do the final render to .m2t. I assume this will cure the problem. Let's hope vegas 8 doesn't have this bug...

I have the same problem. I capture XH A1 HDV 30F with hdvsplit, and all my other video software can read the files without any black frames, but Vegas 7.0e puts them in the final render for all output types. It used to work fine, but I did a nuke-and-repave of Windows and that's when the problem started.

Douglas Spotted Eagle · August 20th, 2007, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe Busch

What "bug" ... I've been editing in .m2t since January with no problems at all... 7.0e...

Joe, there are some folks that consistently report a 2-frame problem in their HDV vid. I don't have this issue either, but it obviously exists. I'm convinced it's hardware related.

Tony Spring · August 20th, 2007, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle

Joe, there are some folks that consistently report a 2-frame problem in their HDV vid. I don't have this issue either, but it obviously exists. I'm convinced it's hardware related.

Could you please be a bit more specific regards the hardware? I've had this 2 frame problem on a couple of different PC's, a Sony laptop and a Mesh desktop.

Willard Hill · August 20th, 2007, 02:01 PM

I have not pursued this enough to have any real answers if we are talking about the same thing, but I periodically get black frames when editing m2T in 7d. This is visible on the monitor as a quick black flash.

I have scrolled through the video and captured a still of the glitch which is simply a clear area which of course displays as black on the Vegas timeline. In some cases I have rendered the area in question and the problem goes away, but I have seen instances that it is there in the same spot every time and would not go away with repeated replay or rendering.

This leads me to believe that it is hardware related, but I have not yet performed the simple test of playing back the footage in question direct from the camera to a monitor and see if it is a tape glitch, but it does not have the appearance of a drop-out which should last much longer, etc.

I have changed my drive configuration from when that problem appeared a month or so ago and am also now capturing and editing with NEO HDV and have not noticed any problems recently.

Tony Spring · August 20th, 2007, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willard Hill

This leads me to believe that it is hardware related, but I have not yet performed the simple test of playing back the footage in question direct from the camera to a monitor and see if it is a tape glitch, but it does not have the appearance of a drop-out which should last much longer, etc.

I have changed my drive configuration from when that problem appeared a month or so ago and am also now capturing and editing with NEO HDV and have not noticed any problems recently.

It's definatley not tape drop-outs, I've tested that. I'll be using NEO HDV on my next job. It's taking too much time for me to keep rendering and checking for black frames. I've got wedding clients crying out for their DVDs!

Brian Standing · August 20th, 2007, 03:41 PM

Some folks report that setting RAM Preview to zero fixes this problem. Others have not been so lucky.

Tony Spring · August 20th, 2007, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Standing

Some folks report that setting RAM Preview to zero fixes this problem. Others have not been so lucky.

Tried that Brian but didn't work for me.

Had a look at your "Pedaphiles" preview, those guys are nuts!

Danny Fye · August 21st, 2007, 12:21 AM

I too have this problem.

This is one very difficult problem to nail down and troubleshoot.

I recently did a wedding video and towards the end of the solo there it was. I didn’t bother to remove it because it happened during a bunch of flashes from the photographer. A few weeks later I re-opened the project and the black frames were gone. No where to be found.

Recently I did a theater video and got the problem on it. I played around with settings and got some rather interesting results. If I change the preview from ‘preview auto’ to ‘good auto’ the black frames would disappear. If I then changed the size of the preview then they would show-up again. However when making these kind of changes something happened that I had never seen before. The location of the black frames changed by about 10 or more seconds. Sometimes I would go from ‘good auto’ to ‘preview auto’ and get the same results. All efforts to make them disappear were temporary not permanent and certainly not a fix. No matter what I did to make them appear or disappear the black frames would always show-up in the rendered file. A few times and for a while the black frame would show-up on the preview but not in the render.

I had this problem on my old system and now on my new/current system. The only item I have from the old system is the video card.

Now, I don’t know what the routine in Vegas 7 is doing to make the *.m2t video play so smoothly but there is something about what it does that doesn’t agree with certain hardware.

So if Vegas is not using the video card and is using the ram then my theory is the problem would most likely involve how Vegas work with certain ram. I do know that Vegas works best after a fresh reboot. In fact most things video seems to work best after a fresh reboot. I think in part (theory) it has to do with the ram becoming fragmented and in part with timing or a combination of both.

The new system I built last spring is a temporary system and I will be building another new system that has what I ‘really’ want either this or next week. Also with ALL new components. The only thing they will then have in common is that the video cards are based on ATI and of course I will be using Vegas. I will be going from Windows XP Home to Windows XP Pro.

Once my newest system is built I will do some more HDV and see if the black frame problem is there or not. Considering how this problem works it may take a while before I can report my results.

I do not see this as a “bug” in Vegas but (in theory) a problem in how the routine(s) in Vegas to make *.m2t files play smoothly may not be totally compatible with certain ram and/or ram timings. Or may simply may not work well with certain systems.

Unless the routines use the video cards I doubt very much that is where the problem is. In spite of my using my old video card in my new/current system and assuming that Vegas is not using the video card, what is there in common between my old system and new/current system that could be causing this problem?

I think that if we are ever going to solve this problem then what we need is a comprehensive list of all system configurations where there is this problem and the ones that do not.

Once we have a comprehensive list of the systems that do and the ones that do not then we can hopefully determine what the cause of this problem is.

Having one person say they have this problem and another person say they don’t will not help in this situation.

If this problem actually is a bug in Vegas then it certainly is not a simple bug to diagnose. If it is a compatibility problem with certain hardware and/or the way the hardware is configured along with possible software or driver issues then it will take quite a bit of research to solve.

Anyway, sorry this is so long but I do hope this helps.

P.S. This problem shows-up with tape or direct to hard drive (via FS-4 HD). So it is not a tape drop-out problem. I've had it show-up both ways. Also it doesn't matter if I combine the *.m2t files or not.

Danny Fye
www.dannyfye.com
www.vidmus.com
www.vidmus.com/scolvs

David Jasany · August 22nd, 2007, 07:10 AM

For a short time I've been editing m2t on the timeline and haven't observed the 2 black frame problem. I'm using 7e on a Asus mobo with a P4 and 2GB, nVidea graphics, and I haven't rendered yet.

Yang Wen · December 2nd, 2009, 11:16 PM

Have black frames bugs randomly as well. Running a fresh Windows 7 64bit and 32bit Vegas 9.0c. Playing back cineform intermediates results in flashing black frame.. Restarted vegas and the black frames go away.. WTF!

Willard Hill · December 3rd, 2009, 06:14 PM

I had the black frame issue with all Versions of Vegas 7 when editing M2t files, but Cineform worked OK. After upgrading to 8.0 I was able to edit M2t, and cineform without issues.

Since upgrading to 9.0 I have been experiencing a problem similar to yours. I am now on 9.C I can edit M2T well, but the Cineform clips sometimes turn red and then eventually black. Restarting Vegas will restore proper function for a time. This is most noticeable when working with neoscene and Canon 7D files. I am going to an i7 core in a few days and will see if this solves the problems, but it is a real pain with my current system.

Yang Wen · December 3rd, 2009, 11:17 PM

Why would a newer/faster processor fix the black/red frame issue? I suspect it's a case of these applications getting more complex and the increasing knowledge gap between Sony and 3rd party application developers.. The end result is the less than ideal platform that we have to work with.

Burk Webb · December 4th, 2009, 02:31 AM

hmmmmm, I'm getting the red clip thing with 7D cineform files edited in Vegas 9c. This is on a pretty old AMD X2 machine. Setting my ram preview to zero seems to help. Have not spent much time trouble shooting, restarting the program seems to fix it.

It seems to occur mostly when I am going back and forth from the trimmer to the timeline. Have not experienced the "2 black frames" bug. For me the whole clip turns red on the timeline, I can open it in the trimmer and sometimes it will play but i recall it being hit or miss.

August 20th, 2007, 03:21 AM	#1
Tony Spring Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: london UK Posts: 170	Black frames driving me mad! I'm going to have to give up trying to edit HDV .m2t files in vegas 7d cos of the 2 black frame bug. I'll have to edit using cineform .avi intermediates and only do the final render to .m2t. I assume this will cure the problem. Let's hope vegas 8 doesn't have this bug... __________________ www.springproductions.co.uk

August 20th, 2007, 02:01 PM	#6
Willard Hill Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 191	I have not pursued this enough to have any real answers if we are talking about the same thing, but I periodically get black frames when editing m2T in 7d. This is visible on the monitor as a quick black flash. I have scrolled through the video and captured a still of the glitch which is simply a clear area which of course displays as black on the Vegas timeline. In some cases I have rendered the area in question and the problem goes away, but I have seen instances that it is there in the same spot every time and would not go away with repeated replay or rendering. This leads me to believe that it is hardware related, but I have not yet performed the simple test of playing back the footage in question direct from the camera to a monitor and see if it is a tape glitch, but it does not have the appearance of a drop-out which should last much longer, etc. I have changed my drive configuration from when that problem appeared a month or so ago and am also now capturing and editing with NEO HDV and have not noticed any problems recently. __________________ Willard http://pawildlifephotographer.blogspot.com/

August 20th, 2007, 03:41 PM	#8
Brian Standing Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Madison, Wisconsin Posts: 621	Some folks report that setting RAM Preview to zero fixes this problem. Others have not been so lucky. __________________ http://www.prolefeedstudios.com/blog/ Documentary for the masses!

August 21st, 2007, 12:21 AM	#10
Danny Fye Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Independence MO. Posts: 318	I too have this problem. This is one very difficult problem to nail down and troubleshoot. I recently did a wedding video and towards the end of the solo there it was. I didn’t bother to remove it because it happened during a bunch of flashes from the photographer. A few weeks later I re-opened the project and the black frames were gone. No where to be found. Recently I did a theater video and got the problem on it. I played around with settings and got some rather interesting results. If I change the preview from ‘preview auto’ to ‘good auto’ the black frames would disappear. If I then changed the size of the preview then they would show-up again. However when making these kind of changes something happened that I had never seen before. The location of the black frames changed by about 10 or more seconds. Sometimes I would go from ‘good auto’ to ‘preview auto’ and get the same results. All efforts to make them disappear were temporary not permanent and certainly not a fix. No matter what I did to make them appear or disappear the black frames would always show-up in the rendered file. A few times and for a while the black frame would show-up on the preview but not in the render. I had this problem on my old system and now on my new/current system. The only item I have from the old system is the video card. Now, I don’t know what the routine in Vegas 7 is doing to make the .m2t video play so smoothly but there is something about what it does that doesn’t agree with certain hardware. So if Vegas is not using the video card and is using the ram then my theory is the problem would most likely involve how Vegas work with certain ram. I do know that Vegas works best after a fresh reboot. In fact most things video seems to work best after a fresh reboot. I think in part (theory) it has to do with the ram becoming fragmented and in part with timing or a combination of both. The new system I built last spring is a temporary system and I will be building another new system that has what I ‘really’ want either this or next week. Also with ALL new components. The only thing they will then have in common is that the video cards are based on ATI and of course I will be using Vegas. I will be going from Windows XP Home to Windows XP Pro. Once my newest system is built I will do some more HDV and see if the black frame problem is there or not. Considering how this problem works it may take a while before I can report my results. I do not see this as a “bug” in Vegas but (in theory) a problem in how the routine(s) in Vegas to make .m2t files play smoothly may not be totally compatible with certain ram and/or ram timings. Or may simply may not work well with certain systems. Unless the routines use the video cards I doubt very much that is where the problem is. In spite of my using my old video card in my new/current system and assuming that Vegas is not using the video card, what is there in common between my old system and new/current system that could be causing this problem? I think that if we are ever going to solve this problem then what we need is a comprehensive list of all system configurations where there is this problem and the ones that do not. Once we have a comprehensive list of the systems that do and the ones that do not then we can hopefully determine what the cause of this problem is. Having one person say they have this problem and another person say they don’t will not help in this situation. If this problem actually is a bug in Vegas then it certainly is not a simple bug to diagnose. If it is a compatibility problem with certain hardware and/or the way the hardware is configured along with possible software or driver issues then it will take quite a bit of research to solve. Anyway, sorry this is so long but I do hope this helps. P.S. This problem shows-up with tape or direct to hard drive (via FS-4 HD). So it is not a tape drop-out problem. I've had it show-up both ways. Also it doesn't matter if I combine the *.m2t files or not. Danny Fye www.dannyfye.com www.vidmus.com www.vidmus.com/scolvs __________________ www.dannyfye.com

December 3rd, 2009, 06:14 PM	#13
Willard Hill Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 191	I had the black frame issue with all Versions of Vegas 7 when editing M2t files, but Cineform worked OK. After upgrading to 8.0 I was able to edit M2t, and cineform without issues. Since upgrading to 9.0 I have been experiencing a problem similar to yours. I am now on 9.C I can edit M2T well, but the Cineform clips sometimes turn red and then eventually black. Restarting Vegas will restore proper function for a time. This is most noticeable when working with neoscene and Canon 7D files. I am going to an i7 core in a few days and will see if this solves the problems, but it is a real pain with my current system. __________________ Willard http://pawildlifephotographer.blogspot.com/

August 20th, 2007, 03:55 AM	#2
Joe Busch Major Player Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sammamish, WA Posts: 398	What "bug" ... I've been editing in .m2t since January with no problems at all... 7.0e...

August 22nd, 2007, 07:10 AM	#11
David Jasany Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: North Carolina Posts: 313	For a short time I've been editing m2t on the timeline and haven't observed the 2 black frame problem. I'm using 7e on a Asus mobo with a P4 and 2GB, nVidea graphics, and I haven't rendered yet.

December 2nd, 2009, 11:16 PM	#12
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	Have black frames bugs randomly as well. Running a fresh Windows 7 64bit and 32bit Vegas 9.0c. Playing back cineform intermediates results in flashing black frame.. Restarted vegas and the black frames go away.. WTF!

December 3rd, 2009, 11:17 PM	#14
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	Why would a newer/faster processor fix the black/red frame issue? I suspect it's a case of these applications getting more complex and the increasing knowledge gap between Sony and 3rd party application developers.. The end result is the less than ideal platform that we have to work with.

December 4th, 2009, 02:31 AM	#15
Burk Webb Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 249	hmmmmm, I'm getting the red clip thing with 7D cineform files edited in Vegas 9c. This is on a pretty old AMD X2 machine. Setting my ram preview to zero seems to help. Have not spent much time trouble shooting, restarting the program seems to fix it. It seems to occur mostly when I am going back and forth from the trimmer to the timeline. Have not experienced the "2 black frames" bug. For me the whole clip turns red on the timeline, I can open it in the trimmer and sometimes it will play but i recall it being hit or miss.