Audio for theatre at DVinfo.net

Scott Brooks · June 27th, 2007, 08:43 PM

First of all ... yes I've looked through the all the threads, but if my answer lies in there ... I missed it.

Stage performance by a local community theatre/single camera shoot. I've done tons of these, but my patience is gone when it comes to audio.

They all mic the central actors, but not everyone with speaking parts. They all run through the sound board and think that's the best way for me to get the audio, but in fact ... it's all armatures and it sucks.

Question one: I have three Shure PZM mics. If I use these three across the apron of the the stage and run them through my Mackie ... would this provide a quality sound? I realize I would probably have to put foam under them. This will be a musical.

Question two: Would I be better off using two or three short condeser microphones either across the front of the stage on mic stands (assuming that they can't be hung)?

Thanks for any audio suggestions you might have.

Scott

Zach Stewart · June 27th, 2007, 09:00 PM

I've used the PZM mics a ton in the corporate industry as head table mics, audio conference mics, even mic'd a kids choir onstage with them once. But, i've never used them in theatre. Foam under the mics would probably be necessary with all the foot vibrations and i think they would work out great. Of course, the farther away the talent is from the mic the softer he/she will be. The condenser mics would probably be just as good as well, but from my experience they don't have as long of a throw as the PZM's do. Plus, the condenser mics tend to be pretty hot and can peak pretty easily.

Only way to really find out which works best is to rent some from your local AV rental company and try it out. Your board will have to provide phantom power of course. Good luck.

Scott Brooks · June 27th, 2007, 11:14 PM

Thanks Zach. I've got a situation coming up and I might experiment with it a bit. If I go with the PZMs then I don't have to spend any additional money. Phantom power is not a problem.

If I go with the short condensers then I have to invest in those and honestly ... I've cut back on some of those jobs so I'm thinking that it might end up being an investment that provides little in return.

The only other alternative would be to hang two lavaliere mics over the stage or put them at the front of the stage if hanging them doesn't work.

By the way ... I purchased the PZMs years ago when I was taping focus groups for our phone company. I loved them for that ... just never used them during a stage event.

Allan Black · June 28th, 2007, 04:54 AM

Scott, try your setups well beforehand, a big problem recording stage musicals is always the voice clarity and balance between the vocals and the music. The closer you can get with vocal mics the better they'll sound.
Good luck.

Jason Robinson · June 29th, 2007, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allan Black

Scott, try your setups well beforehand, a big problem recording stage musicals is always the voice clarity and balance between the vocals and the music. The closer you can get with vocal mics the better they'll sound.
Good luck.

I have always wondered it a few sound guys with this type of setup would work to catch the moving actors...... Kind of like how ESPN & other sports shows have guys on the sideline with these mics so they can pick up the athlete sounds, crunches, etc. Of course they are asking $1200 and this one is even more. Not sure how the frequency response is on these sort of systems. This one is under $200 but I bet the sound quality will show as a result.

This site has an interesting discussion about how stereo recording helps the human brain filter out unwanted noises from a source recording where a mono source will sound more garbled.

Frank Simpson · June 29th, 2007, 12:41 PM

This is indeed a sticky situation, and one that is usually exacerbated by sound engineers who don't understand the difference between reinforcing an actor's voice to be adequately heard and trying to make them sound like a rock star at 160db. As an actor I have been on both sides of the miced/unmiced fence, and I don't like either one. No one wins in this situation.

Sound designers for professional theatre understand that they must do whatever they must to get everyone sounding the same. When I work local crew on the touring shows this usually means in the neighborhood of 30 or so wireless mics. (Really nice Sennheisers at about $5,000 per set!)

If you are able to isolate your sound from the natural reverb of the too-loud actors through the house PA, then your PZMs will likely do a good job for you. For stage use I prefer the Crown PCC 160 mics as they reject off-axis sound much better. I have used them both as reinforcement mics for performance and as recording mics and have gotten excellent results in both scenarios.

Scott Brooks · June 29th, 2007, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Simpson

This is indeed a sticky situation, and one that is usually exacerbated by sound engineers who don't understand the difference between reinforcing an actor's voice to be adequately heard and trying to make them sound like a rock star at 160db. As an actor I have been on both sides of the miced/unmiced fence, and I don't like either one. No one wins in this situation.

Sound designers for professional theatre understand that they must do whatever they must to get everyone sounding the same. When I work local crew on the touring shows this usually means in the neighborhood of 30 or so wireless mics. (Really nice Sennheisers at about $5,000 per set!)

If you are able to isolate your sound from the natural reverb of the too-loud actors through the house PA, then your PZMs will likely do a good job for you. For stage use I prefer the Crown PCC 160 mics as they reject off-axis sound much better. I have used them both as reinforcement mics for performance and as recording mics and have gotten excellent results in both scenarios.

Your first paragraph makes so much sense. The largest problem is that community theatre and high school theatre mostly rely on volunteers ... meaning someone's dad is running board. All they're thinking about is "making it louder." They have no regard to the blending that must be done.

For the last six years I've taken a feed from the board during the high school programs and for six years I've spent way too much time editing the audio. It's gotten to the point of being brutally painful. I just can't do it anymore.

I'm either going to find a way to make this work with my own system OR I'm going to work off a shotgun mic setup by the camera.

June 27th, 2007, 08:43 PM	#1
Scott Brooks Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Charleston, IL Posts: 231	Audio for theatre First of all ... yes I've looked through the all the threads, but if my answer lies in there ... I missed it. Stage performance by a local community theatre/single camera shoot. I've done tons of these, but my patience is gone when it comes to audio. They all mic the central actors, but not everyone with speaking parts. They all run through the sound board and think that's the best way for me to get the audio, but in fact ... it's all armatures and it sucks. Question one: I have three Shure PZM mics. If I use these three across the apron of the the stage and run them through my Mackie ... would this provide a quality sound? I realize I would probably have to put foam under them. This will be a musical. Question two: Would I be better off using two or three short condeser microphones either across the front of the stage on mic stands (assuming that they can't be hung)? Thanks for any audio suggestions you might have. Scott

June 27th, 2007, 09:00 PM	#2
Zach Stewart Regular Crew Join Date: May 2007 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 176	I've used the PZM mics a ton in the corporate industry as head table mics, audio conference mics, even mic'd a kids choir onstage with them once. But, i've never used them in theatre. Foam under the mics would probably be necessary with all the foot vibrations and i think they would work out great. Of course, the farther away the talent is from the mic the softer he/she will be. The condenser mics would probably be just as good as well, but from my experience they don't have as long of a throw as the PZM's do. Plus, the condenser mics tend to be pretty hot and can peak pretty easily. Only way to really find out which works best is to rent some from your local AV rental company and try it out. Your board will have to provide phantom power of course. Good luck.

June 27th, 2007, 11:14 PM	#3
Scott Brooks Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Charleston, IL Posts: 231	Thanks Zach. I've got a situation coming up and I might experiment with it a bit. If I go with the PZMs then I don't have to spend any additional money. Phantom power is not a problem. If I go with the short condensers then I have to invest in those and honestly ... I've cut back on some of those jobs so I'm thinking that it might end up being an investment that provides little in return. The only other alternative would be to hang two lavaliere mics over the stage or put them at the front of the stage if hanging them doesn't work. By the way ... I purchased the PZMs years ago when I was taping focus groups for our phone company. I loved them for that ... just never used them during a stage event.

June 28th, 2007, 04:54 AM	#4
Allan Black Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Sydney. Posts: 2,929	Scott, try your setups well beforehand, a big problem recording stage musicals is always the voice clarity and balance between the vocals and the music. The closer you can get with vocal mics the better they'll sound. Good luck.

June 29th, 2007, 12:41 PM	#6
Frank Simpson Major Player Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Bozeman, MT Posts: 217	This is indeed a sticky situation, and one that is usually exacerbated by sound engineers who don't understand the difference between reinforcing an actor's voice to be adequately heard and trying to make them sound like a rock star at 160db. As an actor I have been on both sides of the miced/unmiced fence, and I don't like either one. No one wins in this situation. Sound designers for professional theatre understand that they must do whatever they must to get everyone sounding the same. When I work local crew on the touring shows this usually means in the neighborhood of 30 or so wireless mics. (Really nice Sennheisers at about $5,000 per set!) If you are able to isolate your sound from the natural reverb of the too-loud actors through the house PA, then your PZMs will likely do a good job for you. For stage use I prefer the Crown PCC 160 mics as they reject off-axis sound much better. I have used them both as reinforcement mics for performance and as recording mics and have gotten excellent results in both scenarios.