Contract Talk... cancellations

Peter Jefferson · January 20th, 2007, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve House

Sorry Allen but I have to disagree. Contracts are not one-sided but rather are for the mutual protection of all parties. Your clients shouldn't have to come see you with their lawyer at their side cross-checking your contract in order to be accorded fair and equitable treatment in their dealings with you. I'm tired of living in a business climate where it's every man for himself and to hell with any one else and anything you can get away that benfits the business with is okay. IMHO, the contract you offer in the normal course of business should protect both you AND your client and they should not have to negotiate in order to be treated fairly and with respect. We need to get back to the Golden Rule where you would not do to your client what you would not have them fo to you, not because the law or the courts or a contract requires it but rather just because that's the way decent human beings live together.

I also agree with this.. to a point where the business must be protected irrespective of the circumstances. From technical to human to environmental, the bases must be covered considering the incredible potential for ongoing problems

My contract is 3 parts.. the first is the package/invoice, the second is the info they provide me and any specific directions etc etc (ie the info they provide me) and the 3rd part is the info i provide them.. from go to O

Its pretty much 50/50 with reasonable latitude to allow movement and tweaks. Being human and weddings are probably the biggest human event we deal with (save for childbirth) giving a client THIS MUCH latitude isnt what is usually seen down here in Aus, but im yet to have an issue. Most people put up with contract becuse they want the work, but they know to get THESE results, we must follow THESE procedures..99.9% are happy to sign without any tweaks

Jim Michael · January 20th, 2007, 09:00 AM

I think you have two classes of cases here. First is the handling of requests for a specific videographer. Second is events that are out of control of vendor for whatever reason. To me, the "you" referred to in the discussion is the business, not an individual videographer.

As for the provision of a specific videographer, perhaps the contract should state that vendor shall make every effort to provide the videographer requested by customer, however if due to circumstances out of vendor's control vendor may provide a substitute who vendor deems equal or better in technical and creative skill to requested videographer.

Also, some type of clause dealing with so called "acts of god" which prevent vendor from rendering service.

Whatever you do, run it by your attorney.

Allen Williams · January 20th, 2007, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve House

Sorry Allen but I have to disagree. Contracts are not one-sided but rather are for the mutual protection of all parties.... I'm tired of living in a business climate where it's every man for himself and to hell with any one else and anything you can get away with that benefits the business is okay..

Steve,
Have you ever carefully read your insurance agreements (contracts), credit card contracts, contractor, mortgage, auto leasing, etc. contracts?
Can you honestly say they are not skewed in favor of the contractor?
You may be tired of living in a business climate where it's every man for himself but that doesn't change the way business is conducted.

The contract isn't signed by both parties until they are both satisfied but look closely. You get what you want but the contractor takes steps to protect him/her self. If there is disagreement and you have to go to court, as a business owner you're going to lean on your contract to protect you. Otherwise you may have a great deal to loose. Even when there is agreement due to arbitration, someone comes out a looser.

An example, if your bride is not happy with you, what keeps her from suing you for everything that you're worth including your house, car, and business, because of her "pain and suffering" caused by you. That lovely bride could turn into a bridezilla and what's going to protect you from her wrath? We would all like the world to be an ideal place to live, work and have fun in and no one sues each other but that's not reality.

Now, taking in what you said, I would like to see a professional business contract that is really for the mutual protection of both parties and not slanted at all. Do you have an example of one?
Allen W

Peter Jefferson · January 21st, 2007, 04:54 AM

An example, if your bride is not happy with you, what keeps her from suing you for everything that you're worth including your house, car, and business, because of her "pain and suffering" caused by you. That lovely bride could turn into a bridezilla and what's going to protect you from her wrath? We would all like the world to be an ideal place to live, work and have fun in and no one sues each other but that's not reality.

((Ive SEEN this happen afew times in the past with business's being forced to file bankruptcy and start afresh under new names and new registries etc etc... insured or not, if your taken to tribunal, 99% of the time, if youre not contracted, the ruling will go in favour of the client. the biggest reason is that your providing a service with NO contract..Here in Aus DFT doesnt look too lightly on this..

If however your in breach of your own contract, the essence of "pain and suffering" can be argued as being a dash for cash. WIth a contract, the lient knows what to expct, and if something happens for you to not have the ability to fulfil that contractual obligation, then the client must be advised AND AGREE, preferably by signing, or by a response within email, but verbal acceptance is also passable.
Having a 10% compo refund clause covers you irrespective of the Pain and suffering or what have you, as THEY AGREED to accepting this 10% of their package as compo as oppposed to taking u to court and suing u for 10-100 times that ammount.. yes 100 times that amount..
I have one client who i train (i train video pro's here in Syd) and about 4 years ago, he was taken to court for being late to the ceremony (no parking allocated and the bride demanded he stay for thr horse and cart) SO he rocks on in at the ceremony abotu 10 minutes late... As he missed dad giving daughter away, that was seen as a "significant" event and considering she had photographic evidence of ""the emotions which should have been caught but werent" and the incessant tears and waterworks in court.. not to mention ""he ruined our day" remarks being thrown here and there... the judge made a ruling for a little over 20k (which was the cost of her wedding) this ruling was made to "set a precedent" for other professionals to take more care in their work and responsibilites.. and becuase her day ""was ruined" by ""this one enterprise"" it should ""then be taken into consideration that the enterprise in question be responsible for the fees pertaining to the event, as a fair and just means of compensation"
I wasnt there, but when i was shown the transcripts, it completely blew me away..
They put in for an appeal, but its rare to get this kind of thing overturned.. in fact its stil ongoing.. funny thing is, the bride only wanted a full refund (plus her finsihed edit free of course.. which she got 3 weeks later) plus her ""ädditional"" costs which were required to pay her photog to get as many pictures and reprints to cover the ""unfilmed"" element... but after the 20k was thrown at her.. shes been persung it now for 4 years...
Like i said, youd be surprised what people are willing to do.))

""Now, taking in what you said, I would like to see a professional business contract that is really for the mutual protection of both parties and not slanted at all. Do you have an example of one?""

No... i dont. my contract offers allocations to clients to offer direction, but in the end, the contract is realy there to protect the business, irrespective of teh event, package or circumstances surrounding any element

ive seen enough business' fall on their faces and id rather lose a potential client then go down that road

Allen Williams · January 21st, 2007, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Jefferson

U might be on your deathbed, but they WONT care (Last year in fact i WAS on my deathbed and some of my clients didnt give a toss...

If anything goes wrong for the bride, she'll love you as much as you would love the doctor who removed the wrong external organ by mistake.

Several years ago I was called to fill in for a videographer who suffered a heart attack and collapsed in a chuch at the end of the wedding ceremony and had to be rushed to the hospital.
I arrived in time to tape the reception so there was no loss for the bride and groom. The whole time I was there, I had to put up with the grumbling of the B&G about the incident. They were upset because the videographer had the audacity to have a heart attack at their wedding. No kind words or sympathy were ever expressed by them. Just lots of negative complaints.So much for the Golden Rule.
Allen W

Peter Jefferson · January 22nd, 2007, 12:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Allen Williams

If anything goes wrong for the bride, she'll love you as much as you would love the doctor who removed the wrong external organ by mistake.

Several years ago I was called to fill in for a videographer who suffered a heart attack and collapsed in a chuch at the end of the wedding ceremony and had to be rushed to the hospital.
I arrived in time to tape the reception so there was no loss for the bride and groom. The whole time I was there, I had to put up with the grumbling of the B&G about the incident. They were upset because the videographer had the audacity to have a heart attack at their wedding. No kind words or sympathy were ever expressed by them. Just lots of negative complaints.So much for the Golden Rule.
Allen W

My point exactly... fair enough its their day, but in May last year, i had a seizure.. where i noticed it coming along and the left half of my body gave out.. i literally went white, stopped breathing and was pretty much paralyzed.. this was at the after ceremony portraits, so it really wasnt all that significant. A guest who just happened ot be a nurse sat me down and coaxed me back to reality... the bride and groom didnt take any notice (and then again, i wouldnt expect them to) but the reality of the matter is that irrespective of what may happen, the bride and groom are usualy wearing blinders and are tunnelvisioned by the events of teh day.

The point of all this, is that there is one constant That constant being the fact that we are human and things will happen beyond our control.
Irrespective of business responsibilities, those responsibilities can only be handle by a human. With that comes our constant, So despite offering as good a service as one can provide, we must still keep that human element within those business dealings. If we do not, we will lose site of whats really important.

Theres more to what we do than making a buck...

Scott Jaco · January 25th, 2007, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Jefferson

I agree with Allen.. one thng i do though, is that i have 4 backup shooters.. so even if i have a clause that says i will give them a refund plus 10% compo (if nothing is filmed they get 10% on top as compo)

Why give them an extra 10%? Now you are paying them! I would only refund the deposit amount for something like this.

Peter Jefferson · January 25th, 2007, 07:42 AM

check the rest of the thread mate...

"Having a 10% compo refund clause covers you irrespective of the Pain and suffering or what have you, as THEY AGREED to accepting this 10% of their package as compo as oppposed to taking u to court and suing u for 10-100 times that ammount.. "

what i do is called forward thinking.. trust me it pays off to cover yourself...

January 20th, 2007, 09:00 AM	#17
Jim Michael Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 895	I think you have two classes of cases here. First is the handling of requests for a specific videographer. Second is events that are out of control of vendor for whatever reason. To me, the "you" referred to in the discussion is the business, not an individual videographer. As for the provision of a specific videographer, perhaps the contract should state that vendor shall make every effort to provide the videographer requested by customer, however if due to circumstances out of vendor's control vendor may provide a substitute who vendor deems equal or better in technical and creative skill to requested videographer. Also, some type of clause dealing with so called "acts of god" which prevent vendor from rendering service. Whatever you do, run it by your attorney.

January 21st, 2007, 04:54 AM	#19
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	An example, if your bride is not happy with you, what keeps her from suing you for everything that you're worth including your house, car, and business, because of her "pain and suffering" caused by you. That lovely bride could turn into a bridezilla and what's going to protect you from her wrath? We would all like the world to be an ideal place to live, work and have fun in and no one sues each other but that's not reality. ((Ive SEEN this happen afew times in the past with business's being forced to file bankruptcy and start afresh under new names and new registries etc etc... insured or not, if your taken to tribunal, 99% of the time, if youre not contracted, the ruling will go in favour of the client. the biggest reason is that your providing a service with NO contract..Here in Aus DFT doesnt look too lightly on this.. If however your in breach of your own contract, the essence of "pain and suffering" can be argued as being a dash for cash. WIth a contract, the lient knows what to expct, and if something happens for you to not have the ability to fulfil that contractual obligation, then the client must be advised AND AGREE, preferably by signing, or by a response within email, but verbal acceptance is also passable. Having a 10% compo refund clause covers you irrespective of the Pain and suffering or what have you, as THEY AGREED to accepting this 10% of their package as compo as oppposed to taking u to court and suing u for 10-100 times that ammount.. yes 100 times that amount.. I have one client who i train (i train video pro's here in Syd) and about 4 years ago, he was taken to court for being late to the ceremony (no parking allocated and the bride demanded he stay for thr horse and cart) SO he rocks on in at the ceremony abotu 10 minutes late... As he missed dad giving daughter away, that was seen as a "significant" event and considering she had photographic evidence of ""the emotions which should have been caught but werent" and the incessant tears and waterworks in court.. not to mention ""he ruined our day" remarks being thrown here and there... the judge made a ruling for a little over 20k (which was the cost of her wedding) this ruling was made to "set a precedent" for other professionals to take more care in their work and responsibilites.. and becuase her day ""was ruined" by ""this one enterprise"" it should ""then be taken into consideration that the enterprise in question be responsible for the fees pertaining to the event, as a fair and just means of compensation" I wasnt there, but when i was shown the transcripts, it completely blew me away.. They put in for an appeal, but its rare to get this kind of thing overturned.. in fact its stil ongoing.. funny thing is, the bride only wanted a full refund (plus her finsihed edit free of course.. which she got 3 weeks later) plus her ""ädditional"" costs which were required to pay her photog to get as many pictures and reprints to cover the ""unfilmed"" element... but after the 20k was thrown at her.. shes been persung it now for 4 years... Like i said, youd be surprised what people are willing to do.)) ""Now, taking in what you said, I would like to see a professional business contract that is really for the mutual protection of both parties and not slanted at all. Do you have an example of one?"" No... i dont. my contract offers allocations to clients to offer direction, but in the end, the contract is realy there to protect the business, irrespective of teh event, package or circumstances surrounding any element ive seen enough business' fall on their faces and id rather lose a potential client then go down that road

January 25th, 2007, 07:42 AM	#23
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	check the rest of the thread mate... "Having a 10% compo refund clause covers you irrespective of the Pain and suffering or what have you, as THEY AGREED to accepting this 10% of their package as compo as oppposed to taking u to court and suing u for 10-100 times that ammount.. " what i do is called forward thinking.. trust me it pays off to cover yourself...