Dolby Digital 5.1? at DVinfo.net

Louis Maddalena · December 8th, 2006, 08:41 PM

Who is using the dolby digital 5.1 ac3 codec in their wedding productions?

what do you put in the rear speakers? just music? the whole audio track from the front? etc?

Do you have the trademark agreement and use the trademark or are you just exporting the codec and not telling anybody what codec you are using (is it legal to use their codec and not their name?)

I am currently applying for a trademark agreement with Dolby Digital and want to know how other people in the field are using it.

Waldemar Winkler · December 8th, 2006, 08:52 PM

At this point I am not interested in the concept. I wouldn't listen to a symphony performance with my back to the stage. Why should I listen to wedding vows with my eyes focused upon an empty choir loft? I prefer to keep things simple and honest.
My assistant, however, seems to have other ideas. Wonder where that will lead?

Change should suggest a forward progression. Sometimes it is backwards. One will not know unless one experiences the differences.

Luis Rolo · December 8th, 2006, 10:10 PM

I'm starting to explore the surround concept on weddings, but with a different approach.
Since I'm a musician, i simply make quad mixes of my music, panning the instruments through the 4 speakers and putting the dialogs front center.
Why quad and not 5.1? Because 5.1 is too risky to mix. I don't have a bass management system to check what's going on the sub, and consumer 5.1 systems normally send to the sub all frequencies the other speakers can't manage. So, the client will have the bass on the sub anyway... They are subwoofers, not a low frequency channel like the ones in the theaters, where they use full range speakers.... And i don't use the center speaker, because i like to mix the speech with the music playing with levels and panning, so i rather have a fake center (this is normally done in musical surround mixes where the singer don't want to listen to his voice completely "naked", so i adapted myself to this system too).

Luis Rolo · December 8th, 2006, 11:00 PM

And talking about ac3...
I just export it but don't use the trademark. I guess i don't need any kind of agreement for that.

Jonathan Jones · December 8th, 2006, 11:02 PM

I am certainly curious as to what the intended content would be for the rear channels. If trying to capture the truly 'live' exerience, I suppose you could provide audio coverage of guests shifting in their seats. The occaisional sneeze or chuckle, and perhaps 1 or 2 bitties whispering about how the bride looks pregnant in her dress (lol)

I would also think this to assume that the matching video coverage would involve a single cam shoot at center aisle position.

I shoot weddings and special events with a minimum of 3 cameras and cut between them with relative frequency - usually to get the perfect moment from the perfect angle or to give myself the opportunity to edit 'around' the roving photographer while still giving them enough latitude to do their job.
If I was planning on a 5.1 audio product, I would wonder what I would need to do to have the audio follow the video between these cuts, and would it become confusing to the ear? (Typically, I find the ear to be far more discerning then the eye in viewing video).

Just my 2 cents, and a little curiosity with what thoughts this thread offers.
Its certainly intriguing stuff to think on.

-Jon

Luis Rolo · December 8th, 2006, 11:17 PM

Here's a cool trick for churches with only one mic:
Double the audio track. One track will be completely dry and will stay in the front speakers. In the other track you'll put a reverb 100% wet, send it to the rear speakers and lower the audio levels for that track (VERY, VERY low). Now you have a true church ambient while maintaining the ability to listen to the speech. Fake and cheap surround, i know. But it works.

Jonathan Jones · December 9th, 2006, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis Rolo

Here's a cool trick for churches with only one mic:
Double the audio track. One track will be completely dry and will stay in the front speakers. In the other track you'll put a reverb 100% wet, send it to the rear speakers and lower the audio levels for that track (VERY, VERY low). Now you have a true church ambient while maintaining the ability to listen to the speech. Fake and cheap surround, i know. But it works.

That's awesome. Thanks for the tip.
-Jon

Jason Robinson · December 9th, 2006, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Maddalena

Who is using the dolby digital 5.1 ac3 codec in their wedding productions?

what do you put in the rear speakers? just music? the whole audio track from the front? etc?

Do you have the trademark agreement and use the trademark or are you just exporting the codec and not telling anybody what codec you are using (is it legal to use their codec and not their name?)

I am currently applying for a trademark agreement with Dolby Digital and want to know how other people in the field are using it.

I have been mixing in 5.1, mainly because I have a ~$300 Logitech sound system (I know, that is cheap) to use to test my mixes. I don't generally do too much, other than keep the camera audio to the front and sound track to the rear. I did occasionally play with panning.... but not lately because I forgot how to do that. :-)

jason

Louis Maddalena · December 9th, 2006, 05:17 PM

thanks for the replies all good suggestions, I want to be able to export in 5.1, on my last one for the short edit I did music on 4 speakers, vows in center, and i sent the lower frequencies to the sub from the music... it sounds good in my studio, but I don't know what it will sound like on consumer audio equipment, I am going to invest in consumer equipment so I can hear what the client will hear at home.

any other suggestions for the rear speakers?

Luis Rolo · December 9th, 2006, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis Maddalena

thanks for the replies all good suggestions, I want to be able to export in 5.1, on my last one for the short edit I did music on 4 speakers, vows in center, and i sent the lower frequencies to the sub from the music... it sounds good in my studio, but I don't know what it will sound like on consumer audio equipment, I am going to invest in consumer equipment so I can hear what the client will hear at home.

any other suggestions for the rear speakers?

What do you use for BMS?
Post here some ac3 files and for sure some people will tell you how it will sound on consumer equipment. I mix on 4 studio monitors but i got a Logitech Z-5500 just for that.

Peter Jefferson · December 10th, 2006, 12:52 AM

""Who is using the dolby digital 5.1 ac3 codec in their wedding productions?""
((Me, been doing it now for abotu 6 years, long before software encoders were invented.. predomaintely for commercial but now i do it for weddings as well.. theres a reason for it, but i wont harp on as it seems peopel here already have their own ideas about the merits of the format...))

what do you put in the rear speakers? just music? the whole audio track from the front? etc?

((Its an intricate mix of reverberberation allocated to emulate the rooms acoustics.. (yes, i go out with a tape measure but mostly i pace my steps... ), location audio placement and basic room acoustic values. I aslo run 4 mics during ceremonies and most of teh reception, so this also comes in handy.. i could go on, but i gotta jet soon.. ))

Do you have the trademark agreement and use the trademark or are you just exporting the codec and not telling anybody what codec you are using (is it legal to use their codec and not their name?)
((it is legal to use the codec, so long as u dont use their trademarks. If u intend to use the trademarks, u must have a TSA. I have a TSA and have had i now fow baout 4 years for this element of the business. Its nto that difficult to get, but you have to be aware of teh intricacies of teh technology, the actual soundtrack score, the mix, and finally the encode.
There are MANY restrictions to how u can use the encoded formats, as well as legalities surrounding how you word the use of said technology. I spent at least 6 months drawing up the wording on my website to appease the Dolby hobnobs, as you cannot mispresent the technology, or the trademarks themselves, or how you use teh technology within your product))

I am currently applying for a trademark agreement with Dolby Digital and want to know how other people in the field are using it.

((I use it as i use the dolby logos and trailers within my work. It DOES make a difference to the professional look and feel of the work, then again, my work is more cinematic so presentation wise, this adds to teh ambience of the "movie"like feel of teh piece..

going over some peoples comments now..

with regard to its uses.. nothing beats a raging crowd clapping and cheering... you can pull this off with 2.0 mixes in ProLogic, but keeping it authenic is the goal here.. so having at leasdt 1 mic which is omnidirectional is ideal.
Vows should be on the CENTRE channel only every other channel shoudl be muted. not spread across to share the same chanel as music. Centre placement is the focal point in a surround mix.
Music can be allocated to 5 channels, but i would recomind decreasing the centre channel by at least 16-18db, and shifing most of the music score to the front speakers.. rememebr, music is mixed on 2 channels not 5.1
LFE channel cutoff should be set to filter down to 120hz. LFE shoudl also be cut by about 3-6db, also, running a 2:1 compresion as well as a clipped peak restotration filter will ensure the LFE doesnt clip

Above all else.. one thing people have forgotten about AC3 is its superior compression to mpg audio. In addition to the badnwidth itself, AC3 offer a full 20kz sound representation, as opposed to MPG which doesnt have ths kind of freq response. Like i said, im not gonna go on about it, but it DOES have its uses and it definately DOES make a difference when used effectively..

Luis Rolo · December 10th, 2006, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Jefferson

rememebr, music is mixed on 2 channels not 5.1

Not all music...

Peter Jefferson · December 10th, 2006, 09:01 AM

well thats pretty obvious, however most musc supplied to producer from real world wedding clients would be in a stereo format. In addition, if you were to recieve a 5.1 AC3 audio or DTS audio (as in DVDAudio disc) then you wouldnt be able to imprt it to your NLE anyway, as the file would be locked within the encoder. IE, programs like vegas WILL NOT open an ac3 file and allocate each channel to its respective output..

Sure you can demux the file into 6 seperate streams with somethig like beSweet, however youd end up recompressing the file upon final recompression after the final mixdown..
At the end of the day, 99.9% of your clients WONT have the means or the inclination to provide music in 5.1 to be used in their wedding videos..

Luis Rolo · December 10th, 2006, 09:15 AM

I was talking about mixing your own music, and if you're not a musician there are tons of musicians who would love to have their songs on your videos and only asking for final credits. You only need to find one with music you like (there are some music sites where you can find one easily) and ask him to score the video for you in 5.1, or ask him the songs in separate tracks and mix it yourself.

Peter Jefferson · December 10th, 2006, 06:32 PM

most clients DONT want unknown music, and in countries like australia, where copyright is only a license fee away, its a no brianer when it comes to letting the cleint decide what music to choose. In mot situations, the cleint would prefer to chose thier own soundtrack, and despite our efforts as producers, some still dont get the gist when it comes to appropriate musc selection. Thats just a part of the game i guess.. sure enough, what ur saying is correct, and i wasnt implying u werent, however in the real world wedding scenario, most producers would be using audio selected by the clients themselves.

December 8th, 2006, 08:41 PM	#1
Louis Maddalena Major Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: NYC Area. Posts: 550	Dolby Digital 5.1? Who is using the dolby digital 5.1 ac3 codec in their wedding productions? what do you put in the rear speakers? just music? the whole audio track from the front? etc? Do you have the trademark agreement and use the trademark or are you just exporting the codec and not telling anybody what codec you are using (is it legal to use their codec and not their name?) I am currently applying for a trademark agreement with Dolby Digital and want to know how other people in the field are using it.

December 8th, 2006, 08:52 PM	#2
Waldemar Winkler Major Player Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Durango, Colorado, USA Posts: 711	At this point I am not interested in the concept. I wouldn't listen to a symphony performance with my back to the stage. Why should I listen to wedding vows with my eyes focused upon an empty choir loft? I prefer to keep things simple and honest. My assistant, however, seems to have other ideas. Wonder where that will lead? Change should suggest a forward progression. Sometimes it is backwards. One will not know unless one experiences the differences. __________________ Waldemar

December 8th, 2006, 10:10 PM	#3
Luis Rolo Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Guarda, Portugal Posts: 119	I'm starting to explore the surround concept on weddings, but with a different approach. Since I'm a musician, i simply make quad mixes of my music, panning the instruments through the 4 speakers and putting the dialogs front center. Why quad and not 5.1? Because 5.1 is too risky to mix. I don't have a bass management system to check what's going on the sub, and consumer 5.1 systems normally send to the sub all frequencies the other speakers can't manage. So, the client will have the bass on the sub anyway... They are subwoofers, not a low frequency channel like the ones in the theaters, where they use full range speakers.... And i don't use the center speaker, because i like to mix the speech with the music playing with levels and panning, so i rather have a fake center (this is normally done in musical surround mixes where the singer don't want to listen to his voice completely "naked", so i adapted myself to this system too). __________________ http://luisrolo.com - http://luisrolo.com/blog

December 8th, 2006, 11:00 PM	#4
Luis Rolo Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Guarda, Portugal Posts: 119	And talking about ac3... I just export it but don't use the trademark. I guess i don't need any kind of agreement for that. __________________ http://luisrolo.com - http://luisrolo.com/blog

December 8th, 2006, 11:02 PM	#5
Jonathan Jones Trustee Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Healdsburg, California Posts: 1,138	I am certainly curious as to what the intended content would be for the rear channels. If trying to capture the truly 'live' exerience, I suppose you could provide audio coverage of guests shifting in their seats. The occaisional sneeze or chuckle, and perhaps 1 or 2 bitties whispering about how the bride looks pregnant in her dress (lol) I would also think this to assume that the matching video coverage would involve a single cam shoot at center aisle position. I shoot weddings and special events with a minimum of 3 cameras and cut between them with relative frequency - usually to get the perfect moment from the perfect angle or to give myself the opportunity to edit 'around' the roving photographer while still giving them enough latitude to do their job. If I was planning on a 5.1 audio product, I would wonder what I would need to do to have the audio follow the video between these cuts, and would it become confusing to the ear? (Typically, I find the ear to be far more discerning then the eye in viewing video). Just my 2 cents, and a little curiosity with what thoughts this thread offers. Its certainly intriguing stuff to think on. -Jon __________________ "Are we to go on record, sir, with our assertion that the 'pink hearts, yellow moons, orange stars, and green clovers' are, in point of fact', magically delicious?" - Walter Hollarhan before the House Subcommittee on Integrity in Advertising - May, 1974

December 8th, 2006, 11:17 PM	#6
Luis Rolo Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Guarda, Portugal Posts: 119	Here's a cool trick for churches with only one mic: Double the audio track. One track will be completely dry and will stay in the front speakers. In the other track you'll put a reverb 100% wet, send it to the rear speakers and lower the audio levels for that track (VERY, VERY low). Now you have a true church ambient while maintaining the ability to listen to the speech. Fake and cheap surround, i know. But it works. __________________ http://luisrolo.com - http://luisrolo.com/blog

December 9th, 2006, 05:17 PM	#9
Louis Maddalena Major Player Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: NYC Area. Posts: 550	thanks for the replies all good suggestions, I want to be able to export in 5.1, on my last one for the short edit I did music on 4 speakers, vows in center, and i sent the lower frequencies to the sub from the music... it sounds good in my studio, but I don't know what it will sound like on consumer audio equipment, I am going to invest in consumer equipment so I can hear what the client will hear at home. any other suggestions for the rear speakers?

December 10th, 2006, 12:52 AM	#11
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	""Who is using the dolby digital 5.1 ac3 codec in their wedding productions?"" ((Me, been doing it now for abotu 6 years, long before software encoders were invented.. predomaintely for commercial but now i do it for weddings as well.. theres a reason for it, but i wont harp on as it seems peopel here already have their own ideas about the merits of the format...)) what do you put in the rear speakers? just music? the whole audio track from the front? etc? ((Its an intricate mix of reverberberation allocated to emulate the rooms acoustics.. (yes, i go out with a tape measure but mostly i pace my steps... ), location audio placement and basic room acoustic values. I aslo run 4 mics during ceremonies and most of teh reception, so this also comes in handy.. i could go on, but i gotta jet soon.. )) Do you have the trademark agreement and use the trademark or are you just exporting the codec and not telling anybody what codec you are using (is it legal to use their codec and not their name?) ((it is legal to use the codec, so long as u dont use their trademarks. If u intend to use the trademarks, u must have a TSA. I have a TSA and have had i now fow baout 4 years for this element of the business. Its nto that difficult to get, but you have to be aware of teh intricacies of teh technology, the actual soundtrack score, the mix, and finally the encode. There are MANY restrictions to how u can use the encoded formats, as well as legalities surrounding how you word the use of said technology. I spent at least 6 months drawing up the wording on my website to appease the Dolby hobnobs, as you cannot mispresent the technology, or the trademarks themselves, or how you use teh technology within your product)) I am currently applying for a trademark agreement with Dolby Digital and want to know how other people in the field are using it. ((I use it as i use the dolby logos and trailers within my work. It DOES make a difference to the professional look and feel of the work, then again, my work is more cinematic so presentation wise, this adds to teh ambience of the "movie"like feel of teh piece.. going over some peoples comments now.. with regard to its uses.. nothing beats a raging crowd clapping and cheering... you can pull this off with 2.0 mixes in ProLogic, but keeping it authenic is the goal here.. so having at leasdt 1 mic which is omnidirectional is ideal. Vows should be on the CENTRE channel only every other channel shoudl be muted. not spread across to share the same chanel as music. Centre placement is the focal point in a surround mix. Music can be allocated to 5 channels, but i would recomind decreasing the centre channel by at least 16-18db, and shifing most of the music score to the front speakers.. rememebr, music is mixed on 2 channels not 5.1 LFE channel cutoff should be set to filter down to 120hz. LFE shoudl also be cut by about 3-6db, also, running a 2:1 compresion as well as a clipped peak restotration filter will ensure the LFE doesnt clip Above all else.. one thing people have forgotten about AC3 is its superior compression to mpg audio. In addition to the badnwidth itself, AC3 offer a full 20kz sound representation, as opposed to MPG which doesnt have ths kind of freq response. Like i said, im not gonna go on about it, but it DOES have its uses and it definately DOES make a difference when used effectively..

December 10th, 2006, 09:01 AM	#13
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	well thats pretty obvious, however most musc supplied to producer from real world wedding clients would be in a stereo format. In addition, if you were to recieve a 5.1 AC3 audio or DTS audio (as in DVDAudio disc) then you wouldnt be able to imprt it to your NLE anyway, as the file would be locked within the encoder. IE, programs like vegas WILL NOT open an ac3 file and allocate each channel to its respective output.. Sure you can demux the file into 6 seperate streams with somethig like beSweet, however youd end up recompressing the file upon final recompression after the final mixdown.. At the end of the day, 99.9% of your clients WONT have the means or the inclination to provide music in 5.1 to be used in their wedding videos..

December 10th, 2006, 09:15 AM	#14
Luis Rolo Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Guarda, Portugal Posts: 119	I was talking about mixing your own music, and if you're not a musician there are tons of musicians who would love to have their songs on your videos and only asking for final credits. You only need to find one with music you like (there are some music sites where you can find one easily) and ask him to score the video for you in 5.1, or ask him the songs in separate tracks and mix it yourself. __________________ http://luisrolo.com - http://luisrolo.com/blog

December 10th, 2006, 06:32 PM	#15
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	most clients DONT want unknown music, and in countries like australia, where copyright is only a license fee away, its a no brianer when it comes to letting the cleint decide what music to choose. In mot situations, the cleint would prefer to chose thier own soundtrack, and despite our efforts as producers, some still dont get the gist when it comes to appropriate musc selection. Thats just a part of the game i guess.. sure enough, what ur saying is correct, and i wasnt implying u werent, however in the real world wedding scenario, most producers would be using audio selected by the clients themselves.