What would you do if you felt you were working too hard?

Peter Jefferson · September 6th, 2006, 01:35 AM

Thnx Steve, chek ur email mate.. ;)

As for the Photog who shot 1400 pics, IMO thats overkill... 800 is ALOT however of those photos, how many are gold? How many are worth looking at and how many are worth putting into an album.

Working smarter, not harder is the ultimate goal...

See this is it goes awry, coz alot of people think, oh you shoot XYZ amount, so you must me working harder.. no in fact it doesnt make a difference.. i can stand around and shoot all day long if i have to, or i can take my time and be meticulous with my shots. Be picky and choosy and set up what i think would work, then shoot as candidly as i need to.
To say 8 hours for every hour of stills taken is too much IMO. Shes either doing something wrong, or shes just hammering away and hoping for the best..
I dont know, but if a photog told me they took THAT many, id really be worried... Also i wouldnt want to be on the late end of camera.. With the way shes going, she wont even hit the 100 Wedding mark without the shutter giving out..
I already do alot of post work for photographers (which is why im jumping ship) and ive seen good stuff and crappy stuff. To be honest, of the photos i review and decide to keep, it takes me no more than 10 hours to hammer out over a thousand pics. Then if im going to get all fancy about it, i usually dont have to spend any more than 2 to 5 minutes on each one (usually pics destined for the album no more than 400)
Then to put the album together (which i dont do) would take about 10 hours
From here looking back id say no more than 25 hours for each job.. Most of the time, as the photogs know what theyre doing, theres no need for correction.. only touching up zits and snot stains... ;)

as for the 5d, brilliant unit.. very sturdy and amazing in quality, however even with the 500bux cashback, ive decided to go for the 30d, as for now, i can get a lense on top of the body, as opposed to a 5d body only.
Maybe if it picks up, ill grab a 5d later and keep the 30d as a backup.. who knows...

Joe Allen Rosenberger · September 6th, 2006, 01:47 AM

hey peter....have you considered recruiting some "good"(hard to find i know) help ie. maybe a producer/cam op/editors...you get the picture. YOU do the stills and the hired help keeps the video company rolling???
You still make money from the video stuff but perhaps very little work involved???

I have a friend who did this for many years as he took on much more hollywood work..... he finally sold the video company to one of the crew members for a nice price. he had some very reliable crew members who shot...edited....met with clients, etc. he still collected a pay check from it and did little of the work.

the reason i say this....you seem to a busy guy over there down under.....and it would be a shame to see your video empire evaporate after all the hard work of building your company.

anyway, this is what i would highly consider given similar situation.

Vito DeFilippo · September 6th, 2006, 07:14 PM

Hi Peter,

I've enjoyed reading your posts over the months that I've been around DVi. You seem to have a nice attitude about what you do, a healthy respect for your own abilities, etc.

Have you considered jacking your video prices way up? Sure your bookings will fall dramatically, but perhaps the ones you do get will make you enough to want to continue. From what you say, you seem to have enough of a reputation and a following to be able to bear a major price hike. To me, if you are working so hard that you can't keep up, you are charging too little. I mean, 60 weddings a year for one guy is insane. Wouldn't you rather book 20 at 1.5x or 2x the price? This would still leave you room to do photo work and spend time with the family.

I find the guys I shoot for a bit in the same boat. They can't say no to a contract. They'll wheel and deal to the max to get it, then freak out cause they have to deal with 120 cut-rate weddings. It's crazy.

Anyway, just a thought. Best of luck with your decision...

Peter Jefferson · September 6th, 2006, 11:03 PM

Its funny you know..

In the past i used to take on anything which came my way.. best way to work with word of mouth... get the name out there kind of thing..
Now though, im rejecting jobs. left right and centre.. not because im booked, but becuase the clients are already giving me a hard time with demands, without even seeing the work... i want this i wnt that, i need by this date.. blah blah

I mean what ive noticed now though, is that the bargain basement hunters, and more importantly, those who are not happy with the photos, as the ones that cause the trouble

I'll explain..
Bargain hunters. Usually using their own budgets for the wedding.. usually further away from central CBD areas (cheaper receptions u see) cheap photographer and and pretty much a "less than 20k" affair.. my price to them just under 2 grand, so im not that cheap... BUT cheaper than the photog in most cases..
The fact that they paid upfront, is an issue coz its THEIR money... OK, so an abundane of work is there... so i educate them now...
Mid/Low cost = accessability of product to client = bookings = workload
Peak season = management = preparation/customisation= workload
Updates = Communication to exisitng and new clients = a deduction of edit time = workload
Health = efficiency= workload...

u get my drift...

so why then, after KNOWING this and agreeing to it, is there a problem?
Because after 4 to 5 months, theyre out of pocket with "nothing" to show for it... the hype of the wedding has died down and theyre paying off teir debts bought on by the wedding.. no social life.. nothign much to do really in this time.. especially for those couples already living together..

Other times, its due to alcohol (memory of the day) and in many cases noone else at the wedding is with a camera. So they are desperate to have SOMETHING
And THATS what gets their goat...

Then there are the others. As they have not seen the video, but have recieved their photos, 90% of the time, if theyre NOT pleased with them they automatically assume the worst from the video.
This has happened many times with bargain basement people, but also with some higher end clients.
I must say though that the high end 4k+ video clients are not as susseptable to making assumptions like this, as its THESE clients which appreciate and understand the work thats invovled (hence the ok for the hefty price tag)
But i have found that if a client ends up with dark or ugly photos, they assume that the video will be the same, so again, this desperation to see the work is comes to the fore.
No matter how much trust or how the contract is laid out, it doesnt matter. They have made their decision based on assumption from an unrelated profession and product. Despite their similarities, they ARE different..
Theyre made to believe they are.. the only real association, is composition. The gear is different even though they may have related elements... But still the client has no idea..

A couple of times (in my case) i have been told by clients that the photographer "advises" them to check with the video to see if those "environemntal elements" also afected us. This is a way to pass the attention away from their shoddy work... It happens.. here in aus anyway..
Not always, but its there..

99.999% it hasnt affected us. In fact, with video, there is MUCH more flexibility with lighting.
You see, video is alot more lenient/flexible than stills when it comes to exposure.. especially if a cheap arsed Photog is using the wrong lens'...
But still, the clients do not know this, so they assume the worst. And the longer it takes to get the work out, the more agitated they become.
All because of misplaced IDEA which had either been put into their heads by another, or by the fact that theyre just not happy with what they got so far.

In most cases, they pay photogs 1/3 to over 5 times what they pay for video, so if a Photog stuffs up who was more expensive than us, they automatically think "if i paid 4k for my fotos, but only paid 2k for my video... and my fotos turned out shit... how shit will my video be... "
Its an automatic association, and for most people its a justified assumption, albeit uneducated, you can appreciate THAT concern.

Not all clients are liek this.. 99% of are OK, but its the very few who make it hard to keep wanting to continue..

I think these 2 variables play a key role in customer expectation and satisfaction.

These are all subliminal and not elements which affect the day to day running, as i have clients who KNOW the quality of product, and are happy to wait. No matter how much they paid... it is of no concequence when they recieve the fnished goods.
And those that HAVE paid the higher amounts, understand that the 2 are totally unrelated. But those that do not know and those fotogs that know nothing about what we do and how we do it, also assume the worst, puting doubt into the minds of other uneducated people.

I mean im sure noone here will hack a job out just for the need for speed.. i know i dont.. and anyone who has pride is also of the same mind.

To me, i honestly think that photogs and retail's misguided ideas of video have made things much more difficult.
Down here at least..

Joe your idee aof getting others to shoot and edit, is a good one.. but i know what i am like.. I will need to see and tweak the video before i can deliver it if i am to put my name on it...With that i dont know how viable it would be, but depending on how stills go... It has been something ive been considering for a while now... I'll just have to see how it goes...

Steven Davis · September 7th, 2006, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Jefferson

It has been something ive been considering for a while now... I'll just have to see how it goes...

I still hold that you might want to think about highering a partime business manager. Someone to buffer. That way you can concentrate more on the art, not the bs. :}

Thanks for the email btw, it was very encouraging.

September 6th, 2006, 07:14 PM	#18
Vito DeFilippo Trustee Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 1,585	Hi Peter, I've enjoyed reading your posts over the months that I've been around DVi. You seem to have a nice attitude about what you do, a healthy respect for your own abilities, etc. Have you considered jacking your video prices way up? Sure your bookings will fall dramatically, but perhaps the ones you do get will make you enough to want to continue. From what you say, you seem to have enough of a reputation and a following to be able to bear a major price hike. To me, if you are working so hard that you can't keep up, you are charging too little. I mean, 60 weddings a year for one guy is insane. Wouldn't you rather book 20 at 1.5x or 2x the price? This would still leave you room to do photo work and spend time with the family. I find the guys I shoot for a bit in the same boat. They can't say no to a contract. They'll wheel and deal to the max to get it, then freak out cause they have to deal with 120 cut-rate weddings. It's crazy. Anyway, just a thought. Best of luck with your decision... __________________ . http://www.nosmallroles.com

September 6th, 2006, 01:35 AM	#16
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	Thnx Steve, chek ur email mate.. ;) As for the Photog who shot 1400 pics, IMO thats overkill... 800 is ALOT however of those photos, how many are gold? How many are worth looking at and how many are worth putting into an album. Working smarter, not harder is the ultimate goal... See this is it goes awry, coz alot of people think, oh you shoot XYZ amount, so you must me working harder.. no in fact it doesnt make a difference.. i can stand around and shoot all day long if i have to, or i can take my time and be meticulous with my shots. Be picky and choosy and set up what i think would work, then shoot as candidly as i need to. To say 8 hours for every hour of stills taken is too much IMO. Shes either doing something wrong, or shes just hammering away and hoping for the best.. I dont know, but if a photog told me they took THAT many, id really be worried... Also i wouldnt want to be on the late end of camera.. With the way shes going, she wont even hit the 100 Wedding mark without the shutter giving out.. I already do alot of post work for photographers (which is why im jumping ship) and ive seen good stuff and crappy stuff. To be honest, of the photos i review and decide to keep, it takes me no more than 10 hours to hammer out over a thousand pics. Then if im going to get all fancy about it, i usually dont have to spend any more than 2 to 5 minutes on each one (usually pics destined for the album no more than 400) Then to put the album together (which i dont do) would take about 10 hours From here looking back id say no more than 25 hours for each job.. Most of the time, as the photogs know what theyre doing, theres no need for correction.. only touching up zits and snot stains... ;) as for the 5d, brilliant unit.. very sturdy and amazing in quality, however even with the 500bux cashback, ive decided to go for the 30d, as for now, i can get a lense on top of the body, as opposed to a 5d body only. Maybe if it picks up, ill grab a 5d later and keep the 30d as a backup.. who knows...

September 6th, 2006, 01:47 AM	#17
Joe Allen Rosenberger Major Player Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: USA Posts: 419	hey peter....have you considered recruiting some "good"(hard to find i know) help ie. maybe a producer/cam op/editors...you get the picture. YOU do the stills and the hired help keeps the video company rolling??? You still make money from the video stuff but perhaps very little work involved??? I have a friend who did this for many years as he took on much more hollywood work..... he finally sold the video company to one of the crew members for a nice price. he had some very reliable crew members who shot...edited....met with clients, etc. he still collected a pay check from it and did little of the work. the reason i say this....you seem to a busy guy over there down under.....and it would be a shame to see your video empire evaporate after all the hard work of building your company. anyway, this is what i would highly consider given similar situation.

September 6th, 2006, 11:03 PM	#19
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	Its funny you know.. In the past i used to take on anything which came my way.. best way to work with word of mouth... get the name out there kind of thing.. Now though, im rejecting jobs. left right and centre.. not because im booked, but becuase the clients are already giving me a hard time with demands, without even seeing the work... i want this i wnt that, i need by this date.. blah blah I mean what ive noticed now though, is that the bargain basement hunters, and more importantly, those who are not happy with the photos, as the ones that cause the trouble I'll explain.. Bargain hunters. Usually using their own budgets for the wedding.. usually further away from central CBD areas (cheaper receptions u see) cheap photographer and and pretty much a "less than 20k" affair.. my price to them just under 2 grand, so im not that cheap... BUT cheaper than the photog in most cases.. The fact that they paid upfront, is an issue coz its THEIR money... OK, so an abundane of work is there... so i educate them now... Mid/Low cost = accessability of product to client = bookings = workload Peak season = management = preparation/customisation= workload Updates = Communication to exisitng and new clients = a deduction of edit time = workload Health = efficiency= workload... u get my drift... so why then, after KNOWING this and agreeing to it, is there a problem? Because after 4 to 5 months, theyre out of pocket with "nothing" to show for it... the hype of the wedding has died down and theyre paying off teir debts bought on by the wedding.. no social life.. nothign much to do really in this time.. especially for those couples already living together.. Other times, its due to alcohol (memory of the day) and in many cases noone else at the wedding is with a camera. So they are desperate to have SOMETHING And THATS what gets their goat... Then there are the others. As they have not seen the video, but have recieved their photos, 90% of the time, if theyre NOT pleased with them they automatically assume the worst from the video. This has happened many times with bargain basement people, but also with some higher end clients. I must say though that the high end 4k+ video clients are not as susseptable to making assumptions like this, as its THESE clients which appreciate and understand the work thats invovled (hence the ok for the hefty price tag) But i have found that if a client ends up with dark or ugly photos, they assume that the video will be the same, so again, this desperation to see the work is comes to the fore. No matter how much trust or how the contract is laid out, it doesnt matter. They have made their decision based on assumption from an unrelated profession and product. Despite their similarities, they ARE different.. Theyre made to believe they are.. the only real association, is composition. The gear is different even though they may have related elements... But still the client has no idea.. A couple of times (in my case) i have been told by clients that the photographer "advises" them to check with the video to see if those "environemntal elements" also afected us. This is a way to pass the attention away from their shoddy work... It happens.. here in aus anyway.. Not always, but its there.. 99.999% it hasnt affected us. In fact, with video, there is MUCH more flexibility with lighting. You see, video is alot more lenient/flexible than stills when it comes to exposure.. especially if a cheap arsed Photog is using the wrong lens'... But still, the clients do not know this, so they assume the worst. And the longer it takes to get the work out, the more agitated they become. All because of misplaced IDEA which had either been put into their heads by another, or by the fact that theyre just not happy with what they got so far. In most cases, they pay photogs 1/3 to over 5 times what they pay for video, so if a Photog stuffs up who was more expensive than us, they automatically think "if i paid 4k for my fotos, but only paid 2k for my video... and my fotos turned out shit... how shit will my video be... " Its an automatic association, and for most people its a justified assumption, albeit uneducated, you can appreciate THAT concern. Not all clients are liek this.. 99% of are OK, but its the very few who make it hard to keep wanting to continue.. I think these 2 variables play a key role in customer expectation and satisfaction. These are all subliminal and not elements which affect the day to day running, as i have clients who KNOW the quality of product, and are happy to wait. No matter how much they paid... it is of no concequence when they recieve the fnished goods. And those that HAVE paid the higher amounts, understand that the 2 are totally unrelated. But those that do not know and those fotogs that know nothing about what we do and how we do it, also assume the worst, puting doubt into the minds of other uneducated people. I mean im sure noone here will hack a job out just for the need for speed.. i know i dont.. and anyone who has pride is also of the same mind. To me, i honestly think that photogs and retail's misguided ideas of video have made things much more difficult. Down here at least.. Joe your idee aof getting others to shoot and edit, is a good one.. but i know what i am like.. I will need to see and tweak the video before i can deliver it if i am to put my name on it...With that i dont know how viable it would be, but depending on how stills go... It has been something ive been considering for a while now... I'll just have to see how it goes...