Problem with audio during loud music party at DVinfo.net

Denis Potasnikov · May 22nd, 2006, 07:19 AM

Yesterday I filmed second day of the wedding.Part of it took place in a club where some music played very loud.So I used Sony VX2100 and set my volume on less than average.I do not have external mic.Of course, the result was awful - where there are low basses, the sound is terrible.Should I always use External mic or put something like fur or other material on my internal mic.
Thank you, guys

Peter Jefferson · May 22nd, 2006, 08:48 AM

where there are low basses, the sound is terrible.

Thats coz the mic capsule is overdriven, and the mic preamp is probably being overdriven before it can get to teh AGC (if u have it turned on)

Should I always use External mic
((Thats another option, however an external mic is predominately more sensitive than internal mics.. ))

or put something like fur or other material on my internal mic.
((Fur?? as in a softie?? Softis are designed to diffuse wind and direct contact of elements to the mic capsule. It might help, but i doubt it.. ))

For loud plosives as found in dance parties, i try and get a feed using minidisc or a direct feed into the cameras XLRs depending on the mixer theyre using.
Another option, is to muffle or gag the mic but i really dont see this fixing the problem...

the solution i have found is to turn AGC ON and run teh mics far far FAR below centre level. Now even with this, u might still overdrive the capsule, so youll get SOME disrtortion or peaking, but it wont be as bad. The only REAL solution is to use an external recording device then overdub the audio

Denis Potasnikov · May 23rd, 2006, 02:31 AM

thank you, Peter!

Peter Jefferson · May 23rd, 2006, 09:36 PM

forgot to mention, with baffling a mic, u can get some soundproofing material, such as the cotton like material as found in HiFi shops and build a strip around your mics. This will stop the mic head from being overdriven, BUT you will lose ALOT .. and i mean ALOT of high end detail... its like stuffing cotton wool in your ears .

John Harmon · May 23rd, 2006, 09:49 PM

Yes, if you're in a loud venue, the AGC/limiter is a must, and as Peter said, deep bass really messes things up. Always record a board feed whenever you can, and when editing, sync it to the camera audio (I use the "get it in the ballpark and move it around until the echo disappears" method), take the camera audio down 10-12 dB, pot down the master output just enough to keep it under zero dB, and you're golden. It'll still sound "live," yet clean & clear. I did exactly that with a hip-hop concert I shot at a nightclub a couple Saturdays ago, and it sounds great.

Also, your board feed will drop one frame out of sync from time to time - this is because your camera drops a frame every so often to keep it in sync with television receivers. I'm not sure what the actual frame rate is for PAL (24-point-something fps), but in NTSC, it's 29.97 fps, which means that an external audio source will get one frame out of sync every 16:40 (is my math right?). Play the entire thing in your editor, and when you hear that telltale echo, back it up and delete one frame from your board audio track somewhere it's not noticeable (a silent period is best).

Colin Pearce · May 24th, 2006, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Harmon

I'm not sure what the actual frame rate is for PAL (24-point-something fps), but in NTSC, it's 29.97 fps, which means that an external audio source will get one frame out of sync

PAL is precisely 25 fps. It does not have to drop any frames. So there is no problem with PAL.

Denis Potasnikov · May 25th, 2006, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Harmon

Yes, if you're in a loud venue, the AGC/limiter is a must, and as Peter said, deep bass really messes things up. Always record a board feed whenever you can, and when editing, sync it to the camera audio (I use the "get it in the ballpark and move it around until the echo disappears" method), take the camera audio down 10-12 dB, pot down the master output just enough to keep it under zero dB, and you're golden. It'll still sound "live," yet clean & clear. I did exactly that with a hip-hop concert I shot at a nightclub a couple Saturdays ago, and it sounds great

john,so there should be two audio tracks.one of them containing original audio at a minimum level,and the other one recorded from board feed at a proper level?

Cole McDonald · May 25th, 2006, 07:07 AM

I have an Audio Technica wireless setup for lav mics that I carry with me. I give the transmitter to the mixer for a direct feed with whatever adaptors s/he needs to run it of a monitor output or headphone output. I can then run around as I please getting pristine sound captured to my cam. I just collect the transmitter at the end of the night and buy the sound folk a beer and thank them.

Denis Potasnikov · May 25th, 2006, 07:53 AM

that might be a very good option too.thanks!

Peter Jefferson · May 25th, 2006, 08:17 AM

used to do that Cole, but not everyone has access to their ouyputs on their mixers.. ezpecially cheap arsed DJs who have a road case which with a bolted down mixer (and even with an electric screwdriver they dont want to play)

oh well, we do what needs doing i guess

Cole McDonald · May 25th, 2006, 08:43 AM

Even then though, I bring a headphone splitter and share their headphone feed. I have a huge assortment of adaptors that reside in my camera case for what ever cabling issues may crop up. I can technically grab feeds off the back of the speakers if necessary.

After the fact, you can get a play list from the blown out footage you've got and get the CD's and lay clean sound over the top in post. The ambience and talking parts will be missing, but your production value will raise.

Peter Jefferson · May 27th, 2006, 01:13 AM

good call re- plugs and leads..
over here many of the DJ's wont let u hook up to the deck (as most dont know how to even use it.. ) let alone connecting up through a speaker feed.
The ones that DO know however are relaly good with allownig u to configure the console to suit your needs.. but these are few and far between...

Rick Steele · May 27th, 2006, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Jefferson

used to do that Cole, but not everyone has access to their ouyputs on their mixers.. ezpecially cheap arsed DJs who have a road case which with a bolted down mixer

My experience as well. I'm probably 1 for 10 when it comes to getting a DJ to allow me to tap into his board.

Best solution I've found is a wireless dynamic mounted on a boom pole next to one of his "cheap" speakers. (Now, if I could only keep the guests from playing with it).

Cole McDonald · May 27th, 2006, 10:44 AM

One of the things for wedding videography is that you have some big guns on your side...the bride/mother of the bride. When they hire you, make sure you let them know that they should tell the DJ that you will be tapping his board to get clean audio for the night while you're shooting. Make it a contingency upon which you take the job. It'll make the night go more smoothly. As always, professionalism and politeness are a matter of course, and any reasonable DJ understands the need for you to make him/her sound good in the video ;)

These videos get shown off...often to other people who will get married, the questions should be..."Who did the video" and "Who was the DJ" The latter won't happen without clean sound...to some extent, neither will the former.

Rick Steele · May 27th, 2006, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cole McDonald

When they hire you, make sure you let them know that they should tell the DJ that you will be tapping his board to get clean audio for the night while you're shooting.

Why stop there? Specify that the MOB and bride tell the photographer to stay out of our way. And also, they should tell the church to let us plug into their system and let us stand and move where we want. And if there's a wedding coordinator they should carry our gear too.

This way we can get everybody hacked off to the point where nobody works well together. Nice theory but impractical in my opinion. The wedding family does not need to fight my battles - I'm an adult and if a DJ doesn't want me fooling with his livelihood I understand and am OK with that.

May 22nd, 2006, 07:19 AM	#1
Denis Potasnikov Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: London, UK Posts: 26	Problem with audio during loud music party Yesterday I filmed second day of the wedding.Part of it took place in a club where some music played very loud.So I used Sony VX2100 and set my volume on less than average.I do not have external mic.Of course, the result was awful - where there are low basses, the sound is terrible.Should I always use External mic or put something like fur or other material on my internal mic. Thank you, guys

May 25th, 2006, 07:07 AM	#8
Cole McDonald Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sauk Rapids, MN, USA Posts: 1,675	I have an Audio Technica wireless setup for lav mics that I carry with me. I give the transmitter to the mixer for a direct feed with whatever adaptors s/he needs to run it of a monitor output or headphone output. I can then run around as I please getting pristine sound captured to my cam. I just collect the transmitter at the end of the night and buy the sound folk a beer and thank them. __________________ Web Youtube Facebook

May 25th, 2006, 08:43 AM	#11
Cole McDonald Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sauk Rapids, MN, USA Posts: 1,675	Even then though, I bring a headphone splitter and share their headphone feed. I have a huge assortment of adaptors that reside in my camera case for what ever cabling issues may crop up. I can technically grab feeds off the back of the speakers if necessary. After the fact, you can get a play list from the blown out footage you've got and get the CD's and lay clean sound over the top in post. The ambience and talking parts will be missing, but your production value will raise. __________________ Web Youtube Facebook

May 27th, 2006, 10:44 AM	#14
Cole McDonald Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sauk Rapids, MN, USA Posts: 1,675	One of the things for wedding videography is that you have some big guns on your side...the bride/mother of the bride. When they hire you, make sure you let them know that they should tell the DJ that you will be tapping his board to get clean audio for the night while you're shooting. Make it a contingency upon which you take the job. It'll make the night go more smoothly. As always, professionalism and politeness are a matter of course, and any reasonable DJ understands the need for you to make him/her sound good in the video ;) These videos get shown off...often to other people who will get married, the questions should be..."Who did the video" and "Who was the DJ" The latter won't happen without clean sound...to some extent, neither will the former. __________________ Web Youtube Facebook

May 22nd, 2006, 08:48 AM	#2
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	where there are low basses, the sound is terrible. Thats coz the mic capsule is overdriven, and the mic preamp is probably being overdriven before it can get to teh AGC (if u have it turned on) Should I always use External mic ((Thats another option, however an external mic is predominately more sensitive than internal mics.. )) or put something like fur or other material on my internal mic. ((Fur?? as in a softie?? Softis are designed to diffuse wind and direct contact of elements to the mic capsule. It might help, but i doubt it.. )) For loud plosives as found in dance parties, i try and get a feed using minidisc or a direct feed into the cameras XLRs depending on the mixer theyre using. Another option, is to muffle or gag the mic but i really dont see this fixing the problem... the solution i have found is to turn AGC ON and run teh mics far far FAR below centre level. Now even with this, u might still overdrive the capsule, so youll get SOME disrtortion or peaking, but it wont be as bad. The only REAL solution is to use an external recording device then overdub the audio

May 23rd, 2006, 02:31 AM	#3
Denis Potasnikov Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: London, UK Posts: 26	thank you, Peter!

May 23rd, 2006, 09:36 PM	#4
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	forgot to mention, with baffling a mic, u can get some soundproofing material, such as the cotton like material as found in HiFi shops and build a strip around your mics. This will stop the mic head from being overdriven, BUT you will lose ALOT .. and i mean ALOT of high end detail... its like stuffing cotton wool in your ears .

May 23rd, 2006, 09:49 PM	#5
John Harmon Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Warren, Michigan, USA Posts: 96	Yes, if you're in a loud venue, the AGC/limiter is a must, and as Peter said, deep bass really messes things up. Always record a board feed whenever you can, and when editing, sync it to the camera audio (I use the "get it in the ballpark and move it around until the echo disappears" method), take the camera audio down 10-12 dB, pot down the master output just enough to keep it under zero dB, and you're golden. It'll still sound "live," yet clean & clear. I did exactly that with a hip-hop concert I shot at a nightclub a couple Saturdays ago, and it sounds great. Also, your board feed will drop one frame out of sync from time to time - this is because your camera drops a frame every so often to keep it in sync with television receivers. I'm not sure what the actual frame rate is for PAL (24-point-something fps), but in NTSC, it's 29.97 fps, which means that an external audio source will get one frame out of sync every 16:40 (is my math right?). Play the entire thing in your editor, and when you hear that telltale echo, back it up and delete one frame from your board audio track somewhere it's not noticeable (a silent period is best).

May 25th, 2006, 07:53 AM	#9
Denis Potasnikov Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: London, UK Posts: 26	that might be a very good option too.thanks!

May 25th, 2006, 08:17 AM	#10
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	used to do that Cole, but not everyone has access to their ouyputs on their mixers.. ezpecially cheap arsed DJs who have a road case which with a bolted down mixer (and even with an electric screwdriver they dont want to play) oh well, we do what needs doing i guess

May 27th, 2006, 01:13 AM	#12
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	good call re- plugs and leads.. over here many of the DJ's wont let u hook up to the deck (as most dont know how to even use it.. ) let alone connecting up through a speaker feed. The ones that DO know however are relaly good with allownig u to configure the console to suit your needs.. but these are few and far between...