Just curious..What breaks your flow...?? at DVinfo.net

Peter Jefferson · May 19th, 2006, 09:19 AM

im just wondering if im the only one feeling this..

Ive been an editor for a lil over 6 yrs now.. and i must say that the biggest influence on what i do and how i do it is the clients music choice.

Recently i was given a selection of tunes which IMO, are appropriate for weddings in the lyrical sense, BUT musically, they do nothing to help build up a scene...
The music was given to me after the wedding date, so the shots taken were pretty generic in their nature..

so ive come to a block where i look at the work and its all fine and good, but the only thing really letting it down in the music.. as i KNOW te whole piece could be better if the music was a lil more dramatic..

to me this is breaking my flow, coz usually i wont use somethng if it doesnt feel right.. in this case, i cant change the selection...

so my answer to this is music.. but im just curious as to what may be your block?? What slows u down? what makes u go over everythign 10 tims before u decide to kep it or ditch it.. ?? What is it that drives u to a point of distratction that u walk away from it wondering WTF ur doing??
As an editor, its my job to adapt to the clients needs, and i do that, but i still find it frustrating when people dont listen to suggestions.. which in turn requires more work on my part, in turn taking up alot more time than necessary.. what would normaly take me 10 days has taken me 24... not happy..
And thats simply because the music selection is not set to any particular theme or pace. Theres no set style to the piece as the disjointed music selection music breaks the flow of the imagery.. so yeah that kills it for me..

Don Bloom · May 19th, 2006, 11:27 AM

For me, its how does it feel and does it flow.
Hard to explain but I know when it works and when it doesn't. Like you most of that comes from the music and it's always nice to have it upfront and to be able to get footage that I KNOW will flow with the tune BUT sometimes it just doesn't work out that way so it's strictly a gut feeling-I also have my wife look at the peice - shes used to it and has a differnt eye than I do. She'll always tell me good, bad or indifferent-she's gone so far as to smack me on the back of my head and ask me "what were you thinking?" (LOL) but seriously I like having her tear the work apart or not - sometimes we just get to close to it to see it.

Maybe go do another part of the edit and comeback to it later with a "fresher" perspective. :-O

Don

Peter Jefferson · May 20th, 2006, 05:05 AM

Hey Don,
yeah well my missus also works beside me sometimes when im cutting and i ALWAYS ask for opinions, and like u ive had afew lumps given over time.. LOL Its good to get a females persepctive as well, and one which doesnt look at the technicalities behind the visuals, but just looks at the visuals as the client would. Simply
Even though she knows how much work is invovled, she takes a simple approach to it, which i CANT. I just cant look at ANY work now without disecting it to bits and to me, that is a negative trait stemming from what i do. Id love to be able to just njoi something for what it is, but i look at EVERYTHING and for me, it started when i was producing music al those years ago and id hear a tune or something and instinctly know what synth was used, how it was used and how they set up that chord or arpegio, the beat pattern, etc etc etc That technical eye has followed me into the video realm and unlike music, its a real bummer, coz i ALWAYS think it could be better.. but if i give myself the chance to "do better" i usually end up going over schedule and then there are more probs from that..
Many ppl in this industry would also see things from our perspective, seeing how the shot was done, the use of colour, blending scenes and flow, but to just sit back and be asked to NOT THINK about HOW it was done is a tough one for anyone who lives and breathes what we do..

its a toughy.. :)

K. Forman · May 20th, 2006, 06:15 AM

In my case, its usually my kids. I really need an office outside of the home...

Don Bloom · May 20th, 2006, 07:05 AM

Peter, I know what you mean. We sometimes look more at the HOW it was done instead of sitting back and enjoying the WHAT-anyway, I share your pain ;-)

Keith,
Heres what to do with the kids-make 'em move out-that'll shut 'em up! ;-O

Kidding of course-but for me it hard to relate to the kids anymore-relate as in being around the house when I'm working as my baby is now 28-married and lives about 800 miles away-my first born and her husband also live about that distance away and my middle one and his wife and the 2 grandkids live about 40 minutes away but we don't get to see them as much -their schedules, our schedules etc etc BUT when the g-kids call it makes our day. I do have to keep the office door closed and locked when they come over-little inquiring minds and all that.

I just put mine in the basement and threw them raw meat twice a week until they reached 21 them let 'em out-seemed to work out OK ;-)
kids are great-grandkids are better cause they go home (quote from that great american...I can't remember who though)
Don

K. Forman · May 20th, 2006, 08:07 AM

Don- Great ideas! Oh, wait... I tried that. The boy's are 5 & 7, too young to throw out yet. I tried, but they kept bringing them back. Then, there is the Step daughter. Couldn't get her to stay home when she was our responsibility. Now that she's 18 AND has a baby, we can't get rid of her! So much for the Grandkids theory.

Is it too late in life for me to run away from home?

Michael W. Niece · May 20th, 2006, 08:22 AM

Peter:
I haven't shared the same experience with an event video before, but I did finished a picture video for a high school graduate who picked his own music. Let's just say that when the baby pictures were showing the chosen song was "She Doesn't Remind Me" (or something like that) from Audio Slave. The other 2 songs they wanted I never even heard of. My solution was to call the parents (they footed the bill, anyway) and explained that the music was so distracting that no one would be able to sit through all 12 minutes of it. I reasoned to use "Photograph" from Nickelback because it was hard stuff like the student liked but not vulger enough to brag about how many time the singer got laid in a week.

Not only do the people choosing the music not understand the technical and "editor's feelings" of the process, but a lot of times I found that they don't take into consideration the other people who will watch it. Not to also mention that they very well could be choosing non-appropriate music to make sure their work isn't showcased by you (us).

-Michael

Don Bloom · May 20th, 2006, 09:08 AM

Keith,
Don't throw them out-wait until they go to school then QUICK ----MOVE! If you have to tell 'em its a game of Hide and Seek ;-)

As for the girl child, I've never been able to figure the female species out anyway and honestly I quit trying a long time ago. 1 wife (37 years) 1 girl child, 2 daughters in law an 1 girl grandchild and I STILL can't figure em out. I guess you just grin an bear it! :-O

Don

Rick Steele · May 20th, 2006, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Jefferson

Recently i was given a selection of tunes which IMO, are appropriate for weddings in the lyrical sense, BUT musically, they do nothing to help build up a scene...

Then do 2 versions. One for them using their music, the other for your demo portfolio using your own selection. Yeah, I know it's more time but it's a way to salvage something.

I quit worrying about crappy music submitted by the B&G a long time ago. The only time I'll suggest something different is if the lyrics are not really appropriate - otherwise, "a-synchin'-we-will-go".

But I feel your pain... there's nothing more boring than synching some great footage to Conway Twitty. :)

Quote:

but im just curious as to what may be your block??

Somebody said once (maybe here) that we never really finish a piece - we just pick a point in time and abandon it. I think that holds very true.

Some things that stiffle my creativity are:

1.) Mistakes made by me during shooting. Sometimes you just have nothing to work with and just need to make something of it. I only use 2 cams right now for the ceremony but want to move to 3. Four may sound like overkill but wow... what an easy edit that would be.

2.) Mistakes made by others during shooting. Right now I'm still working on a couple's first dance where the DJ's sound board went dead during the middle of the song. Plus he couldn't get his PA system to work during the speeches.

Peter Jefferson · May 20th, 2006, 06:36 PM

2.) Mistakes made by others during shooting. Right now I'm still working on a couple's first dance where the DJ's sound board went dead during the middle of the song. Plus he couldn't get his PA system to work during the speeches.

With this, i would just start the cake cut with their song played in the background then build it up as the scene changes to their first dance.. i do this often as sound systems here in aus venues are very cheap and nasty
as for teh spech, i used to mouth a wireless mic on teh lectern(if they had one) but many times the "roaming" mic would be used which would throw things off.. then as im stuck wiht a pathetic PA system, the mic would be useless anyway... with this, theres not much u can do... :(

Greg James · October 31st, 2006, 04:48 PM

Okay, I know this an old thread, but I have gone through similar frustrations with the clients' music choices. I now encourage them to provide me only a couple of their "must-have" songs and then fit them in where I can so that it will work best with the edit. I then can also get an idea from the songs they chose in order to choose the rest of the material on my own that will complement the entire piece. It is a way of getting a little from them but still being able to manage the overall creative process and put my stamp on it. Man, if another bride requests "butterfly kisses" during their dancing with daddy, I think I'm going to gag! Heh heh... Peter, you're probably already past this frustration, but what the hell...

Peter Jefferson · October 31st, 2006, 05:22 PM

" Peter, you're probably already past this frustration, but what the hell..."

LOL mate, im NEVER past this frustration..more recently, i had a client ask for Ol Bue eyes "come rain or shine" and im like.. ok, groovy track for an intro to a ceremony or signing.. but they wanted it for brides prep.. so off we went and cut it tht way for brides prep..

after they got it, they discovered the music wasnt really all that appropriate and asked to change it.. now this is AFTER they got teh wedding aand after they ignored my warnings on it..
So i changed it more to appease myself than it was to please them..
Problem is these people dont realise how much work is invovled in making this sort of change

I guess there comes a time where u have to say to yourself.. how much leverage will i give these people. If theyre nice to me, i dont have a problem giving them the world, if however theyre assholes about it, then i have issues being nice

Greg James · October 31st, 2006, 05:34 PM

I hear ya... when their assholes, I just shut off. When will people like that ever learn that you can get more with sugar? Most times they're good eggs though. My last bride was so sweet that she actually asked me if it would be okay if she chose a couple songs for her DVD. Instead of immediately saying "of course, in fact, I expect you to", I was like, "uh, sure, but only if it will work with your piece". She actually chose two good and underused songs and I told her "I will try to make it work". She just told me to do the best I could and knows that I'll make it great no matter what. Now, of course, I'll use her songs but she is led to believe I am not "obligated"... I've also told some clients when they ask about music that "I just pick it out and everyone's been please so far" but ask what styles they like best. I'd say about half the time, I get to basically choose the music, and it is that half that usually turns out the best... for obvious reasons. So, yeah, I love those clients that think they may be putting you out (and you can use it to seem like a good guy willing to go the extra mile), but can't stand those few clients that really do put me out... don't piss off a waiter or he's liable to piss in your food... heh heh...

Sheldon Blais · October 31st, 2006, 06:37 PM

What stumps me is trying to cut to music I don't like. What I normally try to do is listen to what they play at the reception and base my selection upon that....

What stumps me is when the shot that I want to use is too shaky or overexposed etc. I hate having to use stills because you have to edit the still too! Having to go to sleep so I can go to my day job also breaks my flow....I'll be full of joy the day I can do this full-time.

Garrison Hayes · October 31st, 2006, 07:37 PM

Well...what usually breaks my flow is a scene or shot that isnt all it could be. That or my girlfriend calling me...never fails.

May 19th, 2006, 09:19 AM	#1
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	Just curious..What breaks your flow...?? im just wondering if im the only one feeling this.. Ive been an editor for a lil over 6 yrs now.. and i must say that the biggest influence on what i do and how i do it is the clients music choice. Recently i was given a selection of tunes which IMO, are appropriate for weddings in the lyrical sense, BUT musically, they do nothing to help build up a scene... The music was given to me after the wedding date, so the shots taken were pretty generic in their nature.. so ive come to a block where i look at the work and its all fine and good, but the only thing really letting it down in the music.. as i KNOW te whole piece could be better if the music was a lil more dramatic.. to me this is breaking my flow, coz usually i wont use somethng if it doesnt feel right.. in this case, i cant change the selection... so my answer to this is music.. but im just curious as to what may be your block?? What slows u down? what makes u go over everythign 10 tims before u decide to kep it or ditch it.. ?? What is it that drives u to a point of distratction that u walk away from it wondering WTF ur doing?? As an editor, its my job to adapt to the clients needs, and i do that, but i still find it frustrating when people dont listen to suggestions.. which in turn requires more work on my part, in turn taking up alot more time than necessary.. what would normaly take me 10 days has taken me 24... not happy.. And thats simply because the music selection is not set to any particular theme or pace. Theres no set style to the piece as the disjointed music selection music breaks the flow of the imagery.. so yeah that kills it for me..

May 20th, 2006, 06:15 AM	#4
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	In my case, its usually my kids. I really need an office outside of the home... __________________ www.SmokeWagonLeather.us

May 20th, 2006, 08:07 AM	#6
K. Forman Capt. Quirk Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Middle of the woods in Georgia Posts: 3,596	Don- Great ideas! Oh, wait... I tried that. The boy's are 5 & 7, too young to throw out yet. I tried, but they kept bringing them back. Then, there is the Step daughter. Couldn't get her to stay home when she was our responsibility. Now that she's 18 AND has a baby, we can't get rid of her! So much for the Grandkids theory. Is it too late in life for me to run away from home? __________________ www.SmokeWagonLeather.us

May 20th, 2006, 08:22 AM	#7
Michael W. Niece Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Georgia Posts: 65	Peter: I haven't shared the same experience with an event video before, but I did finished a picture video for a high school graduate who picked his own music. Let's just say that when the baby pictures were showing the chosen song was "She Doesn't Remind Me" (or something like that) from Audio Slave. The other 2 songs they wanted I never even heard of. My solution was to call the parents (they footed the bill, anyway) and explained that the music was so distracting that no one would be able to sit through all 12 minutes of it. I reasoned to use "Photograph" from Nickelback because it was hard stuff like the student liked but not vulger enough to brag about how many time the singer got laid in a week. Not only do the people choosing the music not understand the technical and "editor's feelings" of the process, but a lot of times I found that they don't take into consideration the other people who will watch it. Not to also mention that they very well could be choosing non-appropriate music to make sure their work isn't showcased by you (us). -Michael __________________ May the best days of your past be the worst day of your future.

October 31st, 2006, 07:37 PM	#15
Garrison Hayes Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Atlanta, Ga USA Posts: 110	Flow breakin' Well...what usually breaks my flow is a scene or shot that isnt all it could be. That or my girlfriend calling me...never fails. __________________ I'm in love... With my Panasonic AG-DVX100B. Triple M.

May 19th, 2006, 11:27 AM	#2
Don Bloom Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,609	For me, its how does it feel and does it flow. Hard to explain but I know when it works and when it doesn't. Like you most of that comes from the music and it's always nice to have it upfront and to be able to get footage that I KNOW will flow with the tune BUT sometimes it just doesn't work out that way so it's strictly a gut feeling-I also have my wife look at the peice - shes used to it and has a differnt eye than I do. She'll always tell me good, bad or indifferent-she's gone so far as to smack me on the back of my head and ask me "what were you thinking?" (LOL) but seriously I like having her tear the work apart or not - sometimes we just get to close to it to see it. Maybe go do another part of the edit and comeback to it later with a "fresher" perspective. :-O Don

May 20th, 2006, 05:05 AM	#3
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	Hey Don, yeah well my missus also works beside me sometimes when im cutting and i ALWAYS ask for opinions, and like u ive had afew lumps given over time.. LOL Its good to get a females persepctive as well, and one which doesnt look at the technicalities behind the visuals, but just looks at the visuals as the client would. Simply Even though she knows how much work is invovled, she takes a simple approach to it, which i CANT. I just cant look at ANY work now without disecting it to bits and to me, that is a negative trait stemming from what i do. Id love to be able to just njoi something for what it is, but i look at EVERYTHING and for me, it started when i was producing music al those years ago and id hear a tune or something and instinctly know what synth was used, how it was used and how they set up that chord or arpegio, the beat pattern, etc etc etc That technical eye has followed me into the video realm and unlike music, its a real bummer, coz i ALWAYS think it could be better.. but if i give myself the chance to "do better" i usually end up going over schedule and then there are more probs from that.. Many ppl in this industry would also see things from our perspective, seeing how the shot was done, the use of colour, blending scenes and flow, but to just sit back and be asked to NOT THINK about HOW it was done is a tough one for anyone who lives and breathes what we do.. its a toughy.. :)

May 20th, 2006, 07:05 AM	#5
Don Bloom Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,609	Peter, I know what you mean. We sometimes look more at the HOW it was done instead of sitting back and enjoying the WHAT-anyway, I share your pain ;-) Keith, Heres what to do with the kids-make 'em move out-that'll shut 'em up! ;-O Kidding of course-but for me it hard to relate to the kids anymore-relate as in being around the house when I'm working as my baby is now 28-married and lives about 800 miles away-my first born and her husband also live about that distance away and my middle one and his wife and the 2 grandkids live about 40 minutes away but we don't get to see them as much -their schedules, our schedules etc etc BUT when the g-kids call it makes our day. I do have to keep the office door closed and locked when they come over-little inquiring minds and all that. I just put mine in the basement and threw them raw meat twice a week until they reached 21 them let 'em out-seemed to work out OK ;-) kids are great-grandkids are better cause they go home (quote from that great american...I can't remember who though) Don

May 20th, 2006, 09:08 AM	#8
Don Bloom Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,609	Keith, Don't throw them out-wait until they go to school then QUICK ----MOVE! If you have to tell 'em its a game of Hide and Seek ;-) As for the girl child, I've never been able to figure the female species out anyway and honestly I quit trying a long time ago. 1 wife (37 years) 1 girl child, 2 daughters in law an 1 girl grandchild and I STILL can't figure em out. I guess you just grin an bear it! :-O Don

May 20th, 2006, 06:36 PM	#10
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	2.) Mistakes made by others during shooting. Right now I'm still working on a couple's first dance where the DJ's sound board went dead during the middle of the song. Plus he couldn't get his PA system to work during the speeches. With this, i would just start the cake cut with their song played in the background then build it up as the scene changes to their first dance.. i do this often as sound systems here in aus venues are very cheap and nasty as for teh spech, i used to mouth a wireless mic on teh lectern(if they had one) but many times the "roaming" mic would be used which would throw things off.. then as im stuck wiht a pathetic PA system, the mic would be useless anyway... with this, theres not much u can do... :(

October 31st, 2006, 04:48 PM	#11
Greg James New Boot Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5	Okay, I know this an old thread, but I have gone through similar frustrations with the clients' music choices. I now encourage them to provide me only a couple of their "must-have" songs and then fit them in where I can so that it will work best with the edit. I then can also get an idea from the songs they chose in order to choose the rest of the material on my own that will complement the entire piece. It is a way of getting a little from them but still being able to manage the overall creative process and put my stamp on it. Man, if another bride requests "butterfly kisses" during their dancing with daddy, I think I'm going to gag! Heh heh... Peter, you're probably already past this frustration, but what the hell...

October 31st, 2006, 05:22 PM	#12
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	" Peter, you're probably already past this frustration, but what the hell..." LOL mate, im NEVER past this frustration..more recently, i had a client ask for Ol Bue eyes "come rain or shine" and im like.. ok, groovy track for an intro to a ceremony or signing.. but they wanted it for brides prep.. so off we went and cut it tht way for brides prep.. after they got it, they discovered the music wasnt really all that appropriate and asked to change it.. now this is AFTER they got teh wedding aand after they ignored my warnings on it.. So i changed it more to appease myself than it was to please them.. Problem is these people dont realise how much work is invovled in making this sort of change I guess there comes a time where u have to say to yourself.. how much leverage will i give these people. If theyre nice to me, i dont have a problem giving them the world, if however theyre assholes about it, then i have issues being nice

October 31st, 2006, 05:34 PM	#13
Greg James New Boot Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 5	I hear ya... when their assholes, I just shut off. When will people like that ever learn that you can get more with sugar? Most times they're good eggs though. My last bride was so sweet that she actually asked me if it would be okay if she chose a couple songs for her DVD. Instead of immediately saying "of course, in fact, I expect you to", I was like, "uh, sure, but only if it will work with your piece". She actually chose two good and underused songs and I told her "I will try to make it work". She just told me to do the best I could and knows that I'll make it great no matter what. Now, of course, I'll use her songs but she is led to believe I am not "obligated"... I've also told some clients when they ask about music that "I just pick it out and everyone's been please so far" but ask what styles they like best. I'd say about half the time, I get to basically choose the music, and it is that half that usually turns out the best... for obvious reasons. So, yeah, I love those clients that think they may be putting you out (and you can use it to seem like a good guy willing to go the extra mile), but can't stand those few clients that really do put me out... don't piss off a waiter or he's liable to piss in your food... heh heh...

October 31st, 2006, 06:37 PM	#14
Sheldon Blais Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 114	What stumps me is trying to cut to music I don't like. What I normally try to do is listen to what they play at the reception and base my selection upon that.... What stumps me is when the shot that I want to use is too shaky or overexposed etc. I hate having to use stills because you have to edit the still too! Having to go to sleep so I can go to my day job also breaks my flow....I'll be full of joy the day I can do this full-time.