Brides and Lowball Videographers..urg!

[Mark Von Lanken]

Originally Posted by James Chapman

Hey thanks for the plug in the forum (premieretulsa.com)... I didn't know you were new to the business. I remember checking out your site a while ago. Good stuff.
—Chapman

Hi James,

We have been in business for 10 years. Perhaps you read the quote I was responding to. Your project sounds exciting and I hope to see it someday.

[Peter Jefferson]

Originally Posted by Billy Mallari

Hi Peter

Just out of curiosity, what did you tell the bride after giving you that list of demands. That package she wants seem to cost more than $4000. Wasn't she satisfied with the packages you offer?

I once has a groom who told me he wants to go through the raw files with me. I do this business part time. Does he even know what he is talking about? Raw footages will take you more than 8 hours to watch. I don't think so..It does not work that way.

Even though she SAID she wanted it al for less than 2500, i gave her the quote she asked for and detailed all the extras as alsit based on the upgrade options. I also sent her a copy of our 7 page contract.
The quote came to a little over 4k, and if thats too high for her, thats too bad. In the end i will know that not only was the $$ not worth my effort, but dealing with her would have also been a trial in itself.

As for "sitting with" i dont do that, as my contract clearly states that "all editing is at the discretion of the studio, with the clients requests considered and implemented to the best of the studios artistic abilities, based on the material aquired on the day".
If a client DOESNT tell me what they want, then tough.. Also i wont edit without a music list in front of me. Ive waited over 6 months for a client to get to me with regards to music, them have them call me up abusive as hell asking where their dvd is...
I usually throw the cotnract in their faces when they behave this way. Mind u 30 emails 16 fone calls, and about 8 text messages later.. youd think theyd get their act together.. no, instead, they prefer to complain about delays..
Ive recently changed the contract to say that if music isnt recieved within 3 months from the day of filming, we'll use our discretion.
Moving on...

If a client has an issue with any of this, i usually advise them that the demos they have seen are all created at my own discretion. If they Like those demos, there shouldnt be a problem, if however the bride is controlling, then i will say that not only are you hiring me to shoot ur wedding, but your also hiring me to edit the piece as well. If she wants more control, then a prelimiinary viewing or copy is provided prior to delivery, theyve got 5 days to get back to me with TECHNICAL issues. If they dont get back to me, teh contract clearly states thaat we consider that to be acceptance for mass distribution.

If they want raw material they pay for it. and theyll only get it AFTER i deliver the piece as it doesnt trully represent the finished piece. Raw material puts thoughts and ideas into peoples head sand half the time they dont understand why youve done the same shot of a cake 3 times.... it jsut doesnt do ur business justice, unless u intend on trimming that raw material.

I recently had a bride come to me and say i want my wedding like a movie.. and we did just that.. nothing cheesy, just stylish visuals elegant cuts, a nice story and a pace set to music she chose.. she wanted a TVShow stylalised credit intro, and a 400person guestlist as a credit roll at the end...
We did all that.. and then she came back to me whinging that there werent enough flashy effects. wasnt long enough (for a 4 hour edit across 2 discs... that made me laugh) and that afew of the traditional elements went on for too long as they were the full events as they happened..
Now all the stuff she has mentioned here as being a "defect" was written down prior to shooting as a FEATURED REQUIREMENT. She wanted EVERY traditional elment, she wanted a tight but comprehensive edit, and she wanted it like a movie.. where do u see flashy transitions in a movie??
you dont...

now this kind of behaviour really makes it difficult to work with these kind of people, so KEEP FILES on what u say and what THEY say when it comes to what they want. Do this BEFORE the wedding day. Their tastes may change, but the onus os on them to advise you of those changes prior to delivery

U gotta remember, the longer u spend on one project trying to appease one client, its taking time away from other projects...

I learnt the hard way, and now im a hard ass when it comes to this as i dont like my time wasted simply because one person cant decide what they want...

[Leo Pepingco]

I gotta ask you peter, I just started, and I've had run ins with copyright. When you talka bout "recive music" I'm assuming that the couple gives you a list of music they want. Isnt that expensive to get sync rights if they ask, say, Mariah Carey for thier music.

I've had so many problems with a few people asking me about music copyright that I possibly cant asnwer.

[Peter Jefferson]

i prefer the client gives me a cdrom of their music.

here in aus, we pay a licensing fee of anything between 500 and 5000 depending on the license itself. It alows teh mechanical (sync) and physical use of music (background etc)
Best thing to do is contact a solicitor who specialises in copyright.

I dunno bout anywahere else but here in aus u can head off down to AMCOS/ARIA (u can google search it for info) but i dunno what good it woudl do u if ur not in AUs

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by Leo Pepingco

I gotta ask you peter, I just started, and I've had run ins with copyright. When you talka bout "recive music" I'm assuming that the couple gives you a list of music they want. Isnt that expensive to get sync rights if they ask, say, Mariah Carey for thier music.

I've had so many problems with a few people asking me about music copyright that I possibly cant asnwer.

A search through the archives here will give you the answer to most of your questions. There's a great article in the library on the general subject of the use of copyright music in videos by Douglas Spotted Eagle.

The short answer to your questions is that without specific licensing, it is illegal to use any copyright music in your videos, even it is supplied by the B&G or is copied off of CDs that they already own. That being said, many wedding videographers seem to get away with it and are untroubled by the legalities. How they can sleep nights knowing it's not only illegal by the letter of the law but is also unethical and a blatantly unfair business practice, giving them an unfair advantage over their fellow professionals who choose not to be scofflaws, is beyond me but it does seem to be a law that is honored more in the breech than in the obeyance. It strikes me odd that those who steal other artist's work without any pangs of guilt are often the first to howl to the rafters when their own work gets appropriated but I suppose it's too much to ask people to actually take the Golden Rule to heart in their own lives. Let your conscience be your guide.

[Leo Pepingco]

Well, I'm in OZ, and thanks peter, that sure saved my some heart ache. I'll make sure to keep my costs covered when it comes to expensive sync rights. I only hope it lasts as long as I would like it to. Its just that, when I asked for a copyright to a song "Heaven" by Kym, an emerging australian artist, his manager told me it was $400 for 12 months, and I was supposed to keep sending material his way everytime I used it....

I thought that was fine, until his manager started demanding that his credits go first... Like the area where you go "This such production presnts" Then light up....

I never e-mailed them back... I thought I was getting robbed of my artistic freedoms.

As for music theft, I've only ever ran by the ethical rule. If you dont make money out of it, it doesnt make it right to copy... hahahhahah.... ok, lame joke.

[Pat Sherman]

This is all I could come up with for the music thing..Good Luck..

Jayme,



Good evening, I ran across this in the videographer community. I was wondering if you could confirm or deny this for us small potatoe wedding video makers...



"Leo,
Of course I have no way of verifying if this is true or not, but I spent the entire morning on the phone with BMI and ASCAP first... who referred me to Harry Fox in New York for a sync license, then Harry Fox no longer does sync licenses so I was refered to sesac.com (both by Harry Fox, and ASCAP) I called the representative at Sesac, and they said that if I am providing less than 10 copies of music (for weddings or small events) then I acuatlly can have the end-use provide me with the music they would like in their video.
If they do not have the music, I can buy the music for them, and so long as I charge them for the music in addition to the amount of our contract. So if I make a video for $1000 and its $12.99 for the CD containing, for example, "UB40 - Can't Help Falling in Love" then I can simply charge them $1012.99 for their video and then give them the CD as well. This is because it is considered personal use and you are not responsible for what they do with the other copies...they are essentially backups.
Now if you want to film a high school graduation, its different because you are going to be distributing the video to over 200 people and you would have to contact the individual record company for a master use license. I hope this helps all of you, and I hope SESAC is a reliable source because the lawyers I contacted even couldn't really help me this much. As a side not SESAC has been in business for 75 yeras so I would hope they know what they are talking about. - Shawn"


I can confirm this. It came directly from me to begin with.



Jayme L. Calhoun Paulk
Director, Business Affairs
SESAC, Inc.
55 Music Square East
Nashville, TN 37203

[Leo Pepingco]

Thanks for that Pat,

Its just I was afraid that the moment any kind of music is heard, I'd have to pay for it. And in buckets too...

I was told before by an accountant friend who did a litte law while in uni that it was ok if I only Less than 3 DVD's with the music in them, but he could not confirm it. But now that you say its pretty much ok that Making about 10 DVD's with the cost of the Retail of music added on is considerd personal use... Then I'm set.

I'll just make that phone call to the couple who desperately wants some mariah carey in their video...

I'm really cheap at the moment - And she is strapped for cash, and funnily enough, despite all the horror stories I keep hearing from you guys, this lady just wants a video, and even though its only going to cost her $550, shes quite happy to let me do my thing...

Thanks ya'll..... I'll keep ya up to date on how this nice lady will go vampire on me when I deliver... lol

[Pat Sherman]

WAIT!

Make no mistake that in no way does this mean it's legal, ethical, right, correct any in any other fashion OK. It's just what I found.. :)

[Leo Pepingco]

Well, I did say that it was good news to hear, but I never said that I would go through with it, and I didnt take it on very seriously, because I plan to talk to my family's solicitor, and hopefully get some grounded answers.

Thanks ne ways.... sorry for the false alarm... I can hope can I? lol

[Peter Jefferson]

Originally Posted by Steve House

A search through the archives here will give you the answer to most of your questions. There's a great article in the library on the general subject of the use of copyright music in videos by Douglas Spotted Eagle.

The short answer to your questions is that without specific licensing, it is illegal to use any copyright music in your videos, even it is supplied by the B&G or is copied off of CDs that they already own. That being said, many wedding videographers seem to get away with it and are untroubled by the legalities. How they can sleep nights knowing it's not only illegal by the letter of the law but is also unethical and a blatantly unfair business practice, giving them an unfair advantage over their fellow professionals who choose not to be scofflaws, is beyond me but it does seem to be a law that is honored more in the breech than in the obeyance. It strikes me odd that those who steal other artist's work without any pangs of guilt are often the first to howl to the rafters when their own work gets appropriated but I suppose it's too much to ask people to actually take the Golden Rule to heart in their own lives. Let your conscience be your guide.

I totally agree with you 100%... i mean coming from an audio backgrouand myself and producing musical works for the last 13 years has given me an appreciation of others work, before my own. Being on the "other side" of the coin and producing, you DO feel that your work requires protection and to a point the music IS protected. How ACTIVE that protection is is another question altogether...
With video, its a totally different ballgame, as plagiusarism runs rampant, as many have seen on this board also..
But in al fairness to the video industry itself, i would have to say that 99.9% of the musical scores you hear HERE on this forum from works done by professionals and non professionals alike, is that for one, most of the producers WOULDNT be licensed, secondly the musical scores dictate the pacing and style of the piece (100% of work i have seen here reiterates my case here) and three, the music emphasises the visuals, in fact ENHANCING the visual element. Not the pacing, not the styling, but the EMOTION behind what we see.

Its a simple fact... This accumulation of elements stemmed from the use of copywritten music helps a producer create their works. If a producer DIDNT work this way, THEY wouldnt be making any money.. The fact that theyre making money from this is the real issue which needs to be adressed in teh US it seems

Unless theyre writiing a score as they go along, the fact remains that for a video business to stay in business, the producers themselves MUST use this music as most of their clients/potential clients demand it of them. Imagine trying to market your product and then advising the potential client that you WONT be using copywritten or in more lamens terms, commercially available music.

And this is where the US fails in its system, as there are so many record lablems and publishing companies, that for a company like ARIA/AMCOS to spread its wings out there wouldnt be viable.. the publishers would get something like 5c per lcense acquired, and in the end the paperwork far exceeds the profit margin

Lets face it, if u were a commercial video company using commercial music for an ad, a tv show, a movie etc etc, then more than likely licensing would be policed, however for small cheese domestic use like event videography, it wouldnt be worth the hunt...In aus though, AMCOS is ther to do the hunting for the music companies.

Either way, lets get back to the topic, coz this discussion about copyright has been a bane of this forum for as far back as i cna remember. and from what i can remember, it leads to no answers, so i wouldnt waste any more energy here..

[Peter Jefferson]

Originally Posted by Leo Pepingco

Well, I'm in OZ, and thanks peter, that sure saved my some heart ache. I'll make sure to keep my costs covered when it comes to expensive sync rights. I only hope it lasts as long as I would like it to. Its just that, when I asked for a copyright to a song "Heaven" by Kym, an emerging australian artist, his manager told me it was $400 for 12 months, and I was supposed to keep sending material his way everytime I used it....

I thought that was fine, until his manager started demanding that his credits go first... Like the area where you go "This such production presnts" Then light up....

I never e-mailed them back... I thought I was getting robbed of my artistic freedoms.

As for music theft, I've only ever ran by the ethical rule. If you dont make money out of it, it doesnt make it right to copy... hahahhahah.... ok, lame joke.

Hmm... wel for anyone starting out int he business or not knowing, the first place to look is the office of film and literature classification. From there everthing u need to know is provided.

As for this aprticualr demand, any and al use of music, being cmmercial or wedding or even elevator or hold music can be taken care of with a license from AMCOS/ARIA with NO direct cntact with ANYONE.
Also there is no need to keep sending material to anyone and there is no need to give "credits"
You pay to use the music and thats it. How u use the music is based on the license restrictions and there is NOWHERE on the license itself that states that u must give credits.

[Pat Sherman]

Originally Posted by Leo Pepingco

Well, I did say that it was good news to hear, but I never said that I would go through with it, and I didnt take it on very seriously, because I plan to talk to my family's solicitor, and hopefully get some grounded answers.

Thanks ne ways.... sorry for the false alarm... I can hope can I? lol

hhehehee.. No problem.. As Peter said forum after forum and forum hash out this issue and it's usually the folks doing it justifying it and the folks not doing it not justifying it.. It will just take one headline about a wedding videographer getting sued and then hopefully a resolution will be soon after..

Your best answer for use is contacting the Label/Artist/Performer etc..etc..

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by Pat Sherman

hhehehee.. No problem.. As Peter said forum after forum and forum hash out this issue and it's usually the folks doing it justifying it and the folks not doing it not justifying it.. It will just take one headline about a wedding videographer getting sued and then hopefully a resolution will be soon after..

Your best answer for use is contacting the Label/Artist/Performer etc..etc..

Just one point and then I'll drop the subject.

Take note of the threads such as the one currently running on "...Bad Photographer" where it is a common experience that photographers and other media professionals often don't take wedding and event videographers seriously as professionals in their own right. I suggest one reason for that is that wedding videographers are so notorious for ignoring the copyright issues that virtually all other areas of media production, publishing, broadcasting, professional photography, video and film production, etc consider to be sacred. People for whom respect for copyright law is part and parcel of their professional standards and who would never dream of using others work without license (and for whom misappropriation of their own work is food off of their tables) are going to look down their noses at those who ignore it and treat them as wannabees not to be taken seriously, regardless of the talent and technical skills they exhibit in their work.

[Mike Phan]

Hey guys I'm a newbie as well. I do understand the frustration our friend is going through. I have no experience in wedding videos but my demo for my cousin's wedding have my clients impressed. The thing is with pricing is that its crazy out there. I know the guys in my area have more experience but the quality doesn't have the look and feel of film (more home video like). I did one free one and a couple of $600 packages to get my client base up. After that it will be from bare basic of $950 to $2500. Like other mention on this post its about the quality. Those that go with the cheaper videographers will put their wedding day into their hands. I always believe in the saying "you get what you paid for" and that's true. Keep your standards and they will see what an excellent videographer they will get. (On a side note, I still can't believe they would pay a photographer $4k and a videographer who does more work less than $1k; i mean get real!)