HVX-200 or XL-H1?? at DVinfo.net

Toby Leddy · February 14th, 2006, 11:45 PM

What's the bet for us wedding videographers. I know many posts have circulated on other threads and in the past. I also know it depends on what you are doing. Personally, I am so much more comfortable on an XL- format, but true HD on the HVX-200 looks enticing? Is it worth it?

Also, will resale value on the XL-H1 will hold in 2 years? None of us will ever use the HD-SDI output uncompressed; correct? Unless you're hauling around a Raid System on your back; or shooting in an HD studio that has better cameras already.

I guess we need to wait till NAB correct?

I apologize if this has been covered over and over again, I feel it is something that is changing from day to day.

Any comments would be appreciated!

Cheers

Mike F Smith · February 15th, 2006, 02:20 AM

How can you use the HVX for a wedding? You want to use an external harddrive? Till they make a 100g flash card or a harddrive that is dependable enough so you can sleep at night that camera is a DVX100b with a slightly better lens. I've heard it's not very good in low light. It is definately not a wedding camera IMHO. Indy film maker yes, wedding no. Not that it won't work, it will work as well as a DVX100, maybe not quite as well because of low light.

Mike

Mathieu Ghekiere · February 15th, 2006, 05:59 AM

Go for the XL-H1.
Next to the fact that it has (as been reported, I don't have first hand experience) better low light, it's in the first place the workflow: HDV is okay for weddings, and swapping P2 cards or hard discs isn't that efficient. Well HDD's could work well, but HDV is much cheaper now.

And if you say you're already more comfortable with the XL cams...

Peter Jefferson · February 15th, 2006, 07:38 AM

but true HD on the HVX-200 looks enticing? Is it worth it?

((It is for controlled environments and ENG type recording options.. theres also the full frame rate progressive scan overcranking, which IMO is paramount for wedding prouction.. (IM talking FULL resolution 720p slowmotion) however.. thers always a catch..
P2 cant stand up for long form projects.. not even with a firestore or p2store..
theres no ifs or buts about it.. right now, it doesnt hold up.

at the moment the only storage option u have when shooting is to do on the fly card swaps which for ceremonies, isnt somethign u want to do..
Then there is the issue of archiving this material until you get around to editing it. At the moment, HDD is your only option until blueray is released.. and then your looking at more costs.. there is no cheap alternative to longform archival at this time.

Consider that if youre shooting 4 to 6 weddings a month, you obiously wont be able to edit everythign at once.. and the storage capacity alone will easily hit the 500gb mark for longform.. rememebr, dvcproHD is 4 times LARGER in capacity than DV/HDV

DOnt get me wrong, ithink the HVX is the best unit at its price for what it can do and i cant fault the DVCPro50 format for SD work, as ive ben using it for abotu 4 years now and know what i can and cant do with it. Even DVCPro25 is nicer than DV... but right now, i jsut dont see the HVX having the ability to cut it in the wedding game.. not until a cheap storage solution an be found..

"Also, will resale value on the XL-H1 will hold in 2 years? "
No.. at th emoment here in aus, the camera is goin for $14000 it will drop down to sub 10k within 18months of its release... from there whos to say.. the H1 is a nice camera, but then again u have canon glass to contend with and IMO for video, canon have never really done too much with their glass to make me go WOW.. What i would suggest however would be the EF Adapter and grabbing yourself a couple of Prime Lenses.. now THEN i will say the camera with primes would seriousluy kick butt.. remember these prime lenses are designed for 16mp Digital SLRs, so resolving HD footage will be easier than sneazing..

None of us will ever use the HD-SDI output uncompressed; correct?

((Depends on what your doing... for weddings though.. no.. ))

Unless you're hauling around a Raid System on your back; or shooting in an HD studio that has better cameras already.

I guess we need to wait till NAB correct?

((why wait? the technology is there..

both the H1 and HVX do things similarly but not in the exact same language.. i personally prefer teh HVX... irresepctive of resolving power the codec formats wihtin the unit and teh overcranking is paramouint to what i do.. but the only thing holding me back is P2 capacity and long term storage.
Aside from that, if i was to go for a HD camera, i would go for a JVCHD101.. id wait for the second release though as ive been advised by JVC to wait, but the JVC unit is the closest thing to a DVX100 when it comes to tweakability.
Cost i a major factor, and i dont see why canon can charge 14k wen JVC are charging less than 10k.. 4k is ALOT of money.. i can do alot with $4k...

THe H1 is a stunnin machine, no doubt.. for weddings it will do teh job.. its form factor for long term shooting is not the healthiest but then again shoulder type mounted units werent designed to be lugged around for 12hours...

"I apologize if this has been covered over and over again, I feel it is something that is changing from day to day."

Dont apologise, it IS changing.. btu i wount worry too much abotu HD jsut yet.. i believe in perfecting a product bfore looking forward to expanding the product..

persoanlly id be asking myself.. what more do i ned to perfect what i do? I woudl ten focus on that..
from there.. THAT in itself will bring in more business.. THEN id be worrying about HD.. at this time, ive had 2 clients in teh 80 odd whove asked for HD...

Any comments would be appreciated!

Mike Oveson · February 15th, 2006, 11:42 AM

While I love the HVX-200 and think that it is the better camera, for wedding videos I'd have to say that it wouldn't work well. At least at the moment. As others have said, if there was greater storage capacity on the P2 cards and archiving was easier it would definitely work great. But for now it doesn't. Things will change over time, but if you're expecting to do weddings with this I'd recommend the XL-H1. I think it will hold value for some time. Enough to resell it within 2 years, yes. Will you get back your full initial investment? No. But does anyone on ANY camera recoup what they spent on it? Doubtful. If these are your two choices I'd go with the Canon.

Douglas Villalba · February 15th, 2006, 01:37 PM

The question was what is a better camera for weddings the Pani or the Canon, but.
With 4 different manufacturers out there I would consider them all. I personally went with the Sony FX1 because of price. You can get 3 of these for the price of a Canon. Sure a Canon has a better lens and looks better, but I think that 3 FX1 looks more impressive and you can produce a better wedding with.

The Panasonic may be a contender in the future but for now there is no way to use it at a wedding.

The other choice is JVC. This is actually my favorite even though I don't have one. I like their lens better than all of the others. I like the real 24P and 60P for almost full resolution slow motion. There is still no support for these frame rates within FCP Studio for full HDV codec.

Another thing to consider when using HD cameras is actually too much resolution. As we are speaking of shooing mostly people, the harshness of skin detail may be a little bit too much. A soft filter may need to be used or softening in post, as I discover.

Dan Euritt · February 15th, 2006, 02:01 PM

the cineporter will plug into the p2 slot of the hvx, and record directly to hdd... no need for p2 cards... newer versions of the fs-4 will also record off of the hvx??

an engineer on this board is about to beta test a portable 4:2:2 uncompressed hdd recorder that will plug into the sdi port of the h1... you should maybe also record to hdv, for the audio.

fast laptop hdd's are making all of that possible... the real question is, how are going to edit hd, so that you can deliver it on sd dvd?

February 14th, 2006, 11:45 PM	#1
Toby Leddy New Boot Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: New York, NY Posts: 6	HVX-200 or XL-H1?? What's the bet for us wedding videographers. I know many posts have circulated on other threads and in the past. I also know it depends on what you are doing. Personally, I am so much more comfortable on an XL- format, but true HD on the HVX-200 looks enticing? Is it worth it? Also, will resale value on the XL-H1 will hold in 2 years? None of us will ever use the HD-SDI output uncompressed; correct? Unless you're hauling around a Raid System on your back; or shooting in an HD studio that has better cameras already. I guess we need to wait till NAB correct? I apologize if this has been covered over and over again, I feel it is something that is changing from day to day. Any comments would be appreciated! Cheers

February 15th, 2006, 05:59 AM	#3
Mathieu Ghekiere Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,195	Go for the XL-H1. Next to the fact that it has (as been reported, I don't have first hand experience) better low light, it's in the first place the workflow: HDV is okay for weddings, and swapping P2 cards or hard discs isn't that efficient. Well HDD's could work well, but HDV is much cheaper now. And if you say you're already more comfortable with the XL cams... __________________ http://productionsofthe3rdkind.com http://pr3k.com

February 15th, 2006, 01:37 PM	#6
Douglas Villalba Major Player Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Miami, Florida, USA Posts: 479	The question was what is a better camera for weddings the Pani or the Canon, but. With 4 different manufacturers out there I would consider them all. I personally went with the Sony FX1 because of price. You can get 3 of these for the price of a Canon. Sure a Canon has a better lens and looks better, but I think that 3 FX1 looks more impressive and you can produce a better wedding with. The Panasonic may be a contender in the future but for now there is no way to use it at a wedding. The other choice is JVC. This is actually my favorite even though I don't have one. I like their lens better than all of the others. I like the real 24P and 60P for almost full resolution slow motion. There is still no support for these frame rates within FCP Studio for full HDV codec. Another thing to consider when using HD cameras is actually too much resolution. As we are speaking of shooing mostly people, the harshness of skin detail may be a little bit too much. A soft filter may need to be used or softening in post, as I discover. __________________ Douglas Villalba - director/cinematographer/editor Miami, Florida, USA - www.DVtvPRODUCTIONS.com

February 15th, 2006, 02:20 AM	#2
Mike F Smith Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 156	How can you use the HVX for a wedding? You want to use an external harddrive? Till they make a 100g flash card or a harddrive that is dependable enough so you can sleep at night that camera is a DVX100b with a slightly better lens. I've heard it's not very good in low light. It is definately not a wedding camera IMHO. Indy film maker yes, wedding no. Not that it won't work, it will work as well as a DVX100, maybe not quite as well because of low light. Mike

February 15th, 2006, 07:38 AM	#4
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	but true HD on the HVX-200 looks enticing? Is it worth it? ((It is for controlled environments and ENG type recording options.. theres also the full frame rate progressive scan overcranking, which IMO is paramount for wedding prouction.. (IM talking FULL resolution 720p slowmotion) however.. thers always a catch.. P2 cant stand up for long form projects.. not even with a firestore or p2store.. theres no ifs or buts about it.. right now, it doesnt hold up. at the moment the only storage option u have when shooting is to do on the fly card swaps which for ceremonies, isnt somethign u want to do.. Then there is the issue of archiving this material until you get around to editing it. At the moment, HDD is your only option until blueray is released.. and then your looking at more costs.. there is no cheap alternative to longform archival at this time. Consider that if youre shooting 4 to 6 weddings a month, you obiously wont be able to edit everythign at once.. and the storage capacity alone will easily hit the 500gb mark for longform.. rememebr, dvcproHD is 4 times LARGER in capacity than DV/HDV DOnt get me wrong, ithink the HVX is the best unit at its price for what it can do and i cant fault the DVCPro50 format for SD work, as ive ben using it for abotu 4 years now and know what i can and cant do with it. Even DVCPro25 is nicer than DV... but right now, i jsut dont see the HVX having the ability to cut it in the wedding game.. not until a cheap storage solution an be found.. "Also, will resale value on the XL-H1 will hold in 2 years? " No.. at th emoment here in aus, the camera is goin for $14000 it will drop down to sub 10k within 18months of its release... from there whos to say.. the H1 is a nice camera, but then again u have canon glass to contend with and IMO for video, canon have never really done too much with their glass to make me go WOW.. What i would suggest however would be the EF Adapter and grabbing yourself a couple of Prime Lenses.. now THEN i will say the camera with primes would seriousluy kick butt.. remember these prime lenses are designed for 16mp Digital SLRs, so resolving HD footage will be easier than sneazing.. None of us will ever use the HD-SDI output uncompressed; correct? ((Depends on what your doing... for weddings though.. no.. )) Unless you're hauling around a Raid System on your back; or shooting in an HD studio that has better cameras already. I guess we need to wait till NAB correct? ((why wait? the technology is there.. both the H1 and HVX do things similarly but not in the exact same language.. i personally prefer teh HVX... irresepctive of resolving power the codec formats wihtin the unit and teh overcranking is paramouint to what i do.. but the only thing holding me back is P2 capacity and long term storage. Aside from that, if i was to go for a HD camera, i would go for a JVCHD101.. id wait for the second release though as ive been advised by JVC to wait, but the JVC unit is the closest thing to a DVX100 when it comes to tweakability. Cost i a major factor, and i dont see why canon can charge 14k wen JVC are charging less than 10k.. 4k is ALOT of money.. i can do alot with $4k... THe H1 is a stunnin machine, no doubt.. for weddings it will do teh job.. its form factor for long term shooting is not the healthiest but then again shoulder type mounted units werent designed to be lugged around for 12hours... "I apologize if this has been covered over and over again, I feel it is something that is changing from day to day." Dont apologise, it IS changing.. btu i wount worry too much abotu HD jsut yet.. i believe in perfecting a product bfore looking forward to expanding the product.. persoanlly id be asking myself.. what more do i ned to perfect what i do? I woudl ten focus on that.. from there.. THAT in itself will bring in more business.. THEN id be worrying about HD.. at this time, ive had 2 clients in teh 80 odd whove asked for HD... Any comments would be appreciated!

February 15th, 2006, 11:42 AM	#5
Mike Oveson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Ogden, UT Posts: 349	While I love the HVX-200 and think that it is the better camera, for wedding videos I'd have to say that it wouldn't work well. At least at the moment. As others have said, if there was greater storage capacity on the P2 cards and archiving was easier it would definitely work great. But for now it doesn't. Things will change over time, but if you're expecting to do weddings with this I'd recommend the XL-H1. I think it will hold value for some time. Enough to resell it within 2 years, yes. Will you get back your full initial investment? No. But does anyone on ANY camera recoup what they spent on it? Doubtful. If these are your two choices I'd go with the Canon.

February 15th, 2006, 02:01 PM	#7
Dan Euritt Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Carlsbad CA Posts: 1,132	the cineporter will plug into the p2 slot of the hvx, and record directly to hdd... no need for p2 cards... newer versions of the fs-4 will also record off of the hvx?? an engineer on this board is about to beta test a portable 4:2:2 uncompressed hdd recorder that will plug into the sdi port of the h1... you should maybe also record to hdv, for the audio. fast laptop hdd's are making all of that possible... the real question is, how are going to edit hd, so that you can deliver it on sd dvd?