Not Posting Clips For a While

[Chris M. Watson]

Hey Guys,

I have to be honest. I thought that I was doing a cool thing by introducing myself and sharing not only one clip but three of them. The idea was to spark a discussion about how our clients weddings and song choices can afford us an opportunity to break out of the box. How we can bend (and even break) a few rules as long as we keep the destination in sight. I would have loved to have had a debate or discussion on that.

Instead what resulted was a debate (fought many times over) about use of copyrighted music. It was also implied that I was flagrant, arrogant and unprofessional for using copyrighted materials. This turn of events came as a surprise to me since I've seen many clips posted by videographers who also use copyrighted works and the issue never came up. In fact Glen posted a clip of his own around the same time where a poster from my thread calling me unprofessional turns around and praises his clip (which was awesome by the way) without mentioning his use of the "Kill Bill" soundtrack. I'm just asking for a little consistency here.

I want to thank Glen for inviting me on this forum and I look forward to helping out whenever I can on various issues. As for clip posting, I was planning on going "silent" after this anyway. The responses to my introductory post only confirms to me that's the right decision to make. Between this board and another one I frequent, there's about 5 clips out there and I think that's enough exposure for now. I just had a run of unique weddings and wanted to share. If I feel the urge to share again, I'll just read my introductory thread again and that should solve things :). Not mad, just disappointed.

Chris Watson

[Rick Steele]

Not mad, just disappointed.

No - don't stop. Blame me for bringing it up (although I wasn't pronouncing judgement - just curious about the criteria for awards).

Again Chris, you've got lot's of experience to share - please keep doing it.

[Steve House]

I have to ask, how would you feel if I downloaded your clip, loaded it into an NLE and stripped off your name and added my own, then sent it out as a part of my reel to seek work? Would that be acceptable to you if I did a very very good job of it?

We should be sharing information about how to become better creative professionals, not how to be better at doing something we shouldn't do in the first place.

[Michael Dempsey]

In order to avoid these uncomfortable situations I think we should adopt the US military's stance on homosexuals and that being Don't Ask Don't Tell.

We'll all assume that each clip has the proper copyrights and let it go at that.......

[A.J. Briones]

Originally Posted by Steve House

I have to ask, how would you feel if I downloaded your clip, loaded it into an NLE and stripped off your name and added my own, then sent it out as a part of my reel to seek work? Would that be acceptable to you if I did a very very good job of it?

We should be sharing information about how to become better creative professionals, not how to be better at doing something we shouldn't do in the first place.

right. and your comparison makes sense because chris posted an mp3 on this forum and told us he wrote and produced the song.

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by A.J. Briones

right. and your comparison makes sense because chris posted an mp3 on this forum and told us he wrote and produced the song.

And I really do appreciate the quality of his work and his sharing it with us. From an artistic view it his clips are outstanding and very instructive. I just wish he hadn't tainted it by listening to the temptations of the dark side andf had used his own music instead of someone else's.

[Chris M. Watson]

Originally Posted by Steve House

I have to ask, how would you feel if I downloaded your clip, loaded it into an NLE and stripped off your name and added my own, then sent it out as a part of my reel to seek work? Would that be acceptable to you if I did a very very good job of it?

We should be sharing information about how to become better creative professionals, not how to be better at doing something we shouldn't do in the first place.

Well as the victim of said theft, nobody knows better than I how hurtful it is to see someone posting your work as their own. There is a crucial difference and this is where your analogy breaks down. Nobody in their right mind would think I sang or composed those songs in my videos. As I said earlier, I would love to have a system like the Aussies have where for $400 a year you can legally use licensed music in your videos for domestic use. That's a fair and reasonable way of doing it. Right now you have to go through a process that is set up for movie studios and tv shows and not for the independent boutique producer.

I encourage you to start a thread of your own about this issue. I would gladly take part in it as well as others who have no doubt contributed to other copyright debates. Hijacking a thread is considered rude and a subject as important as this deserves its own topic anyway.

CW

PS: The way I dealt with said thief was I posted his URL on VU, encouraged people to visit his site, and told them to download any clips they see on there multiple times. That was fun.

[Glen Elliott]

Originally Posted by A.J. Briones

right. and your comparison makes sense because chris posted an mp3 on this forum and told us he wrote and produced the song.

I'd have to agree that it's not an accurate analogy. Steve also stated that, "I always thought the law was the law and obedience was mandatory, a test of responsible citizenship, zero options, and not merely a suggestion."
If you truly live by this than you never go over the posted speed limit on the highway even if your late to work. In the theme of an analogy that is something most people do as well. Does it make it legal, no....safe, absolutely not. However taking on a rather aggressive opinion about the issue doesn't solve anything. Videographers know the laws just like the motorists on the highway. If they decide to break them it's on them and not really necessary for you to provide an inclusive brow-beating.

Also you hinted toward the fact that Event Videographers use of copywritten music is the reason (or at least a big contributing factor) for the lack of respect we get in the industry as a whole. I couldn't disagree more. I feel that is caused by:

1) Lack of education on the bride/clients part as to what modern wedding videography is

and

2) The thousands of hacks that litter the industry bringing us down as a whole. Undercharging and/or producing boring uninspired videography all the while carrying the monicer "professional" videographer.

Steve I don't want to single you out beings other contributed to the other thread who share your stance. I respect your stance on the issue- however I respectfully disagree with the analogy and some statements you made.

[Pat Sherman]

Chris,

Keep posting the clips, I like them as do many others. It's a forum so people will always have opinions and disagreements. Even as this thread includes no video with any type of music the debate still lingers on.

While I can't say either the majority or minorty use commericial copyrighted music it's a personal decision based on experience, knowledge and well just some fun risk taking action. I take the risks, my client likes the risks and would I be willing to go to court. Well..I would have too, but that is besides the point. I still would willingly go..

I am confident in loop holes..:) Actually I am confident in my ability to articulate my actions and have no problem telling the truth. Sure, it's illegal but so are so many other things.

How about the people that insert the DVD logo on their wedding case designs. Looks official and professional.. It's illegal. Your not licensed to use the LOGO.

So I'm sure if you had a company of 1000 videographers producing 500 wedding videos a month and making a windfall of money it wouldn't be long till the issue is addressed..:)

I'm guilty as well since I have no replied to said debate..

As you can see it's clearly not you posting clips that starts debates.

[Steve House]

Originally Posted by Chris M Watson

Well as the victim of said theft, nobody knows better than I how hurtful it is to see someone posting your work as their own. There is a crucial difference and this is where your analogy breaks down. Nobody in their right mind would think I sang or composed those songs in my videos. As I said earlier, I would love to have a system like the Aussies have where for $400 a year you can legally use licensed music in your videos for domestic use. ...

I agree with you that the system needs changing and I would love to see a similar system to the Aussies implemented in this country. But I have to say that until the owners of copyright are our allies it will never happen. And they won't be our allies until everyone in the industry stops using their works without license. You may feel there's no harm in your using their music but I suggest that in fact it actively harms the reputation and business of every one of your fellow professionals, it directly harms those fellow professionals who choose not to be scofflaws, and it also harms the people whose work you have appropriated without permission or attribution. I don't want to be seen as making a personal attack on you because that's certainly not my intent - I was very impressed with your work and sincerely admire your talent. I'm making a blanket comment on everyone who acts similarly. But plagarism is plagarism and my comments are directed at everyone who, like you, feels its acceptable to bend the law when it serves their own interests. You, and others who choose to ignore the law, have no more right to use the music they do than did the person who stole your work and posted it as his own. The original version of the Golden Rule seems especially approriate here ... "Do not unto others as you would not have them do to you." The issue is not whether you claim authorship or not - it's that you used their labour without their permission. You rightfully expect others to play by the rules when dealing with you - that expectation creates by its existance the imperative to be equally proper and above board in your own dealings, even when you can get away with doing otherwise.

One of the great tragedies of business in our day is the notion that what is right is what you can get away with and if you haven't been sued and lost, it's okay.

[Mark Von Lanken]

Originally Posted by Chris M Watson

Hey Guys,

I have to be honest. I thought that I was doing a cool thing by introducing myself and sharing not only one clip but three of them. The idea was to spark a discussion about how our clients weddings and song choices can afford us an opportunity to break out of the box. How we can bend (and even break) a few rules as long as we keep the destination in sight. I would have loved to have had a debate or discussion on that.

Instead what resulted was a debate (fought many times over) about use of copyrighted music. It was also implied that I was flagrant, arrogant and unprofessional for using copyrighted materials. This turn of events came as a surprise to me since I've seen many clips posted by videographers who also use copyrighted works and the issue never came up. In fact Glen posted a clip of his own around the same time where a poster from my thread calling me unprofessional turns around and praises his clip (which was awesome by the way) without mentioning his use of the "Kill Bill" soundtrack. I'm just asking for a little consistency here.



Chris Watson

Chris,

I'm so sorry you were greeted with this type of reception. This is why I no longer post clips on DVInfo.net

I hope you stick around as your talent and knowledge can be helpful to many videographers.

Trisha & I look forward to seeing you next month down in Orlando at the 4EVER Convention.
http://4evergroup.org/conventionandtradeshow.html

[Patrick Moreau]

Originally Posted by Steve House

We should be sharing information about how to become better creative professionals, not how to be better at doing something we shouldn't do in the first place.

Steve,

As you are obviously so concerned with following all of the rules, perhaps you should reread the forum rules yourself and try and practice a little more discretion. Perhaps next time you feel the urge to discuss an issue so passionately, you could start a separate thread and refrain from using members as specific examples. I think it can safely be said that the majority of members here would prefer to have others share their work and be inspired, even if that means living without your very insightful and well-timed criticisms.


Chris,

I would like to echo what has already been said. Thanks for sharing your work and perhaps you will try again down the road. It really is a huge benefit to the majority of users.

[Chris M. Watson]

Originally Posted by Steve House

One of the great tragedies of business in our day is the notion that what is right is what you can get away with and if you haven't been sued and lost, it's okay.

I think we should agree to disagree on this and leave it at that. Enough bandwidth has been spent on this issue already with no progress being made.

The thing that upset me is that I freely shared my work on a forum when I really didn't have to. I could have kept my techniques and "secrets" all to myself and my clients. That's what alot of leading videographers do in our industry and rightfully so. When's the last time you saw a clip from the VonLankens or Loi Bahn or Joel Peregrine? To me when someone posts a clip, whether he or she is a begginer or industry leader, I feel priveliged that they want to share their talent or ask for advice. That's good for us all and should be appreciated and respected.

Instead, I got a very different reception. One that I felt was unwarranted and disrespectful. We have differences of opinion on copyright issues and I think we both want the same thing in the end. If you want to dioscuss this, then start a thread of your own. You'll have plenty of responses I'm sure but have respect for those willing to share their way of doing things with the greater videography community.

CW

[Rick Steele]

And they won't be our allies until everyone in the industry stops using their works without license.

Yeah, that'll work... the RIAA has been very generous especially when it holds all the cards.

A lofty goal if not fantasy. I think the copyright holders need to give up on it (as well as DRM) and throw in the towel because this just ain't gonna happen.

Besides, I find it hard to believe the videography industry is to blame for stiffling music sales. I don't have a solution for the MP3 downloaders but I know most videographers wouldn't mind paying for an affordable synch license.

Until then, I will continue to buy the music and include it with my edits.

[Ash Greyson]

I did a few weddings back in the day but I quit for these very reasons. It has nothing to do with copyright music, it has to do with the fact that you are better than them and they dont like that. Trust me, if you posted some lame clips the stink wouldnt be as bad.

The wedding business in general is pretty nasty. I know there are some GREAT guys who do fabulous work but there are also a lot of jealous hacks...



ash =o)