4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings

Steve Burkett · September 20th, 2018, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Peterson

Of course not raw! I'd use ProRes LT with my BMPCC, a single card would last me all day long and more!

I use 128gb cards and go through 2 for most Weddings. Occasionally 1 and a bit for smaller Weddings and 2 and a bit cards for big Weddings. I'm not sure what the file size is for the Pocket 4K. They've given numbers but I'd rather know number of minutes I get per 128gb card.

The lack of IBIS and no flip screen limits it anyway. It can't be my main camera as I need the versatility. A gimbal camera if it can balance on my Ronin S maybe. However unlike the GH5 and GH5s which were roped into Weddings straight away, I'd be running tests and rests before committing to any shoot.

Noa Put · September 20th, 2018, 06:48 AM

The most important part of any weddingcamera is how fast you can change different settings, there are enough situations where you need to get a shot so you either have to rely on the camera all auto functionality (if that is any good) or change whitebalance, shutter, f-stop, iso or focus on the fly.

I never liked shooting on a dslr because I was used to shoot with actual videocamera's that had nd-filters build in, could do smooth zooms with controllable speeds, change f-stop without exposurejumps, had no recording limits, had build in stabilisation and had good auto-focus if needed, could punch into the screen while recording to check focus, had good audio and that all in one package without having to invest in anything else.

The gh5 is the first dslr I feel comfortable with to replace a "real" videocamera though it's far from perfect but it does have the necessary functionality to allow me to use it as a run and gun camera.

The 4K pocketcamera seems like it's way easier to operate then the original version but I don't see it as easy to operate or as versatile as the gh5, I"m sure it will be great with a 2 videographers shoot but not so much for solo shooters.

Steve Burkett · September 21st, 2018, 10:30 AM

It's been confirmed that the Pocket 4K can fit onto the Ronin S, so I may well have a use for it at Weddings. I could use a dedicated camera just for gimbal, leaving my GH5s which I currently use as tripod only. The 50p 4K is of better quality on the Pocket, so would work well. Except for AF performance, but then Pansonic is hardly a winner there either.

If the rumours about the Panasonic Fullframe are true, latest suggests both a budget and pro version both with IBIS, then next year's Wedding season could be much easier to film. Now if they can finally get AF right, all my problems will be sorted. Well those with my gear anyway.

Tom Roper · September 22nd, 2018, 11:09 AM

Great comments! Nice to share with pros. We try different things, not just cameras, tripods, monopods, lights, gimbals, they don't all work out as expected. Even between monopods, it would be easy to lump them together as if they all work the same benefit but they don't. Same with anything. A mistake for me is trying too hard to make something work that I have this picture in my mind is ideal, but once in the field of battle the problems are revealed, have to learn and move on. Speed and readiness most important, and a certain minimum level of acceptance. For example, it's twilight, it's been bright, the clouds roll in and wind picks up just as the bridal procession begins. There's no time to fumble with ND filters. Before you've gotten to that point there is so much to do, mic'ing the groom, plugging into pa or soundboard, recording acoustic musicians, having lights staged for the grand entrance/toasts, being able to switch from outside to inside shots, remembering how you have set your camera presets, remaining situationally aware to be in position for the shots and not forgetting where you have to be at any moment.

For me, one of the keys is not to try and do too much and go into sensory overload, not try and combine too much complication. Make it as simple as possible. With so many great tools and options, it's easy to fall into traps, and fail to remember the most important thing is to keep a record button ready to press instantly.

Noa Put · September 22nd, 2018, 05:06 PM

Quote:

it's easy to fall into traps, and fail to remember the most important thing is to keep a record button ready to press instantly.

Haha, every weddingvideographer that says they never had their camera in standby mode while they thought it was recording is either lying or about to shoot their very first wedding. :)

You gave a very accurate description about the issues we often face at weddings, this year especially my frustrations have been building up more then usual, I have a perfect picture in my head how I want to capture but there is always something not going as planned.

This is one reason why I use several cameras and audiorecorders to cover for things that go wrong but it adds a lot of complexity to my solo shoots, I had several photogs laugh when they saw my gearbag this year, "the man with the many small camera's" one photographer called me. :)
Like many videographers I too suffer from the gas syndrome thinking that every new piece of acquired gear will make my work look or sound better and sometimes it does but currently it becomes hard to keep track of all gear I use and I have lost some small accessories because of that, mainly while moving fast between locations, lenscaps in particular seem to want to escape my gearbag a lot. :)

As my backproblems are getting worse again I made a decision 2 weeks back to make a more radical change in my work and will start to do photography but am looking to see how I still can combine it with video but with a much lighter gearbag, my lumix camera(s) will continue to play an important role because of their ibis but I decided not to buy any new camera for video anymore, unless one of my current camera's would break down. I'm going to sell some of my videogear and keep only the essentials, I got myself a Sony A7III with 2 primes, a 35 and a 85mm and a flash last week which I am primarily going to use to take pictures, I know it shoots good video as well but for that my Panasonic cameras will be used.

That means I won't get the 4K pocketcam as I initially planned but it will stay interested to see what other users will do with it.

Steve Burkett · September 23rd, 2018, 03:57 AM

I've had photographers comment on the amount of gear and cameras I have. Then again I've encountered teams of 3 Photographers covering a Wedding not to mention those packed with lighting gear, lugging lighting stands, portable power packs and professional lights on outdoor shoots. So Photography doesn't always equal less gear. Though many get by on less.

I never lose lens caps, it's always more important gear I've left behind and forcing me to return, sometimes the next day. Such experiences have helped me to adopt a work practise that minimalises such mistakes cos they are a pain in the ass when it happens and costly.

The rumours of the fullframe Panasonic have led me to a few wobbles with my Pocket 4K pre-order, but the fact is
1. I can afford it.
2. I get to play with it over the quiet winter months. A few Personal projects to keep me busy.
3. It comes with Resolve, which was already on my radar, even if just for having non subscription based editing software.
4. Be nice to work with a non Panasonic camera for a change.
5. Image looks nice.

As I've done some Photography work this year, a camera better than the GH5 is something I'm considering. Though I'm prepared to wait and see how this Panasonic rumour turns out. If not, I'd be more interested in Fuji or Nikon. Fuji do lovely colours, so as a proper hybrid I'd more pick that than Sony to be honest.

Tom Roper · September 24th, 2018, 11:02 PM

I am certain the BMP4K can be used, but I don't trust enough to go from the unboxing video to a paid wedding shoot, to not be skilled in its usage, to be caught by surprise by I can only imagine what, a long boot time, short battery life, problem seeing the lcd screen etc. It looks pretty good though with buttons on the outside. I never question what the 2nd shooter brings, but I am hoping he sure as hell knows what he's doing with it. Sometimes they appear on the outside secure and experienced, only to realize, he's not even pointed in the right direction. I always have an eye out, looking ahead of the viewfinder, looking for the upcoming action, keeping track of the other shooter, ready to change angles, and always before I stop recording.

Personally, I am wary of FF for video, mainly due to size and weight. It's one thing to be a photographer, she swings the camera into a point, gets the shot, takes a different angle, shoots another. The videographer could be stuck hand holding the camera steady in one angle for an extended period, and he can't move or break the pose because if he does and there's no backup, the shot ends right there. That can be extremely tiring, you can't be too light, just remaining that still for a long time can wear you out. And yet, these hand held shots can be the best, better than what you get on the tripod, more dynamic, framed tighter, focus and zoom in synch with the action. Tripods and monopods are acceptable when everything is static, horrid when you move or recompose. I try to keep the tripod for a backup/safety shot, wide, don't change the framing composition, i.e. boring footage! But the handheld shots, they have a style and dynamic that keeps them interesting, even better than gimbal except for walking around, but even walking handheld can work. This is the advantage of dslr shooting style.

Steve Burkett · September 25th, 2018, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

Personally, I am wary of FF for video, mainly due to size and weight.

Well the GH5 is hardly small and some of the MFT lenses are hardly light. Some pair the sigma 18-35 lens with the GH5. It's not that far off a FF camera with lens for weight and size.

I've just seen the Panasonic announcement. I'm sold. I can see me adding a S1, 24-105 and the 50mm lens to my kit next year when it comes out. With my GH5, GH5s, Pocket 4K, and a couple of GH4r, I've got all bases covered for my Business. Can't wait.

Noa Put · September 25th, 2018, 06:30 AM

Size and weight is not a issue anymore with mirrorless full frame camera's, the a7III is smaller and lighter then a gh5, some lenses however can add quite a bit of weight.

Noa Put · September 25th, 2018, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Burkett

I've just seen the Panasonic announcement. I'm sold. I can see me adding a S1, 24-105 and the 50mm lens to my kit next year when it comes out.

I"m usually sold when I see how a camera performs :) On paper it all looks nice but from what I can see it's focus is still contrast based dfd technology like the gh5 and we know how that works out. Panasonic promised very good autofocussing on the gh5 but it basically suxs so I would not trust much from them anymore untill it's proven in the field.

I"m sure it will do great though but it's a very premature system that has to grow, that 24-105 will most likely be a f4 lens and it will take a while before Panasonic and other lens manufacturers will deliver a broader range of affordable lenses, they have to as the Leica L mount native lenses are very expensive.

Steve Burkett · September 25th, 2018, 07:31 AM

Noa, you're speaking to a guy who pre ordered a pocket 4K back in April and who got the GH5 literally on the day of release and was shooting a Wedding with it 2 hours later. :) I go with my instincts with gear sometimes.

Yeah I'm a bit concerned about the AF, but hoping that there's more to it. AF does work on the GH5, it's just unreliable. Apparently we have yet another update end of October to add some improvements. If they can eliminate the loss of focus at critical moments, then who knows, maybe DFD can work. We'll see. It's the only downer I can find so far in this camera.

Either way, it's fullframe with 50p 4K. I can see it fitting in nicely with my other cameras. Rumours it can take MFT lenses with an adaptor would allow me to still make use of my current lenses in a pinch if needed. If I want fullframe, and it would be nice to have that option, then it's either this or Sony, or Nikon. Pansonic has served me well and I'm prepared to wait. I'll need further specs of course but what I've seen so far interest me.

Peter Riding · September 25th, 2018, 01:01 PM

I jumped in with great interest the moment the Panasonic email arrived with me at 13:49 this afternoon; I've used Panasonic a lot in the past. But soon I was feeling underwhelmed and the thoughts I'd made for myself have now been articulated by Tony Northrup in his initial video:

He had even expressed what I was going through: "Is this the end for micro 4/3?"

There are so many unknowns for now. It hadn't occurred to me that 4k 6fps might have to be cropped. Perhaps there will be a viable competitor to dual pixel auto-focus. Perhaps it will all come good.

There is another new video. I tried to watch it but the editing is so awful I couldn't finish it:

BTW think carefully, very carefully, if you are considering the Nikon Z7 if your work involves a lot of low-light scenarios:

Depressing Low-Light Specs of the Z7 - FM Forums

Yikes.

Steve Burkett · September 25th, 2018, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Riding

But soon I was feeling underwhelmed and the thoughts I'd made for myself have now been articulated by Tony Northrup.

He had even expressed what I was going through: "Is this the end for micro 4/3?"

There are so many unknowns for now.

I kind of skimmed the video. Seriously how can anyone make a 17 minute video out of the little we have been told about the camera. Basically he was just doing the press release over again. Some people have too much time on their hands to post this kind of stuff. A video for video sake. Alas a trend with YouTube with lots of 'look at me' vloggers popping up everywhere for their 15 mins of fame.

Plus he's got his facts wrong. I've seen the LCD screen and it's a bit more than 3 axis tilt. Not quite sure what it is, but basically it comes out on some levers and can swing out and also tilt. Weird choice. But nothing like he described.

And the fact Panasonic have developed a lovely new 10 to 25 mm 1.7 lens for the 4/3s suggests they are still committed. After all, even Canon run different size sensors as do Nikon with fullframe and APS-C, so why not Panasonic, albeit with a larger difference in size. There's room for both and this is just Panasonic offering a fullframe camera in their line up. Something many have called for. Given Canon and even Sony are stalling here as they protect their cinema camera lines, it's a welcome move.

However the camera is 6 months from release, so I'm not sure what people were expecting in terms of wow news. As the guy in the video put it. Bit like the GH5, we won't get specs till the New Year. However if we are getting the GH5 in fullframe form, I think that's pretty wow enough for me. :)

Noa Put · September 26th, 2018, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Seriously how can anyone make a 17 minute video out of the little we have been told about the camera

Because that is how they make money, with over 1 mil subcribers and many viewing I bet he can cash in real nice by simply repeating what we all allready know.

I never care that much about those early "reviewers", I often look for reviews from people who have been using the camera for months instead of a few days just for the sake for getting attention and making extra YouTube money.

I instead will be waiting for Steve to tell us how bad the camera is once he receives his pre-order. :)

Peter Riding · September 26th, 2018, 03:37 AM

Oh dear Steve you're coming across a bit bit shillish again :- )

Northrup isn't any old Youtuber, he has well over a million subscribers, has an enormous amount of detailed info online with just the odd bit of wrong info here and there (which he corrects when his detractors to their enormous delight find mistakes), and is one of the very first to get the physical gear from the manufacturers e.g. Canon EOS-R mirrorless. He has been a huge advocate of the GH5 / GH5s in the past though he seems to be less enamoured with them in recent months. Personally I've never liked what I regard as the CGI look of some of his GH5 videos.

But the main thing that jumped out at me was that to all intents and purposes many people looking at the Panny full-frame and lenses will look at it as a complete change of system. Why do that when Nikon, Canon, and latterly Sony have vast and proven kit. And by the time the Panny bodies arrive next year and the more varied Panny lenses in 2020 the competition will have moved ahead as well.

All the stuff about 4k and 10 bit and 4:2:2 etc sorry but you could not be more wrong. Kit for the masses is already close to mature. Just think what the audiophiles are like as a comparison; they bang on about features that no-one else knows about or cares about - they embarrass themselves. I do use a cinema audio system - 5.1 on a 7.1 AV receiver with KEF eggs but thats mainly because the recent flatscreen TVs have such poor onboard audio. My recent AV receiver does Dolby Atmos but I won't bother with that. I upgraded it because it does an Audio Return Channel and that wasn't available the last time I upgraded one 10 years ago. Does anyone bother having a separate CD amp anymore or separate speakers. Ha ha.

My daughter can shoot 4k on her iphone. I can shoot 4k on my Galaxy S9. 4k is about as interesting as 3D and curved TVs :- )

Noa: Stop Press- Northrup does loads of extended training videos some 90 minutes and more and highly detailed. He could only report of the Panny fullframe details as they exist obviously but his channel is the go to place for first info as well as full-on.

September 20th, 2018, 06:48 AM	#77
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings The most important part of any weddingcamera is how fast you can change different settings, there are enough situations where you need to get a shot so you either have to rely on the camera all auto functionality (if that is any good) or change whitebalance, shutter, f-stop, iso or focus on the fly. I never liked shooting on a dslr because I was used to shoot with actual videocamera's that had nd-filters build in, could do smooth zooms with controllable speeds, change f-stop without exposurejumps, had no recording limits, had build in stabilisation and had good auto-focus if needed, could punch into the screen while recording to check focus, had good audio and that all in one package without having to invest in anything else. The gh5 is the first dslr I feel comfortable with to replace a "real" videocamera though it's far from perfect but it does have the necessary functionality to allow me to use it as a run and gun camera. The 4K pocketcamera seems like it's way easier to operate then the original version but I don't see it as easy to operate or as versatile as the gh5, I"m sure it will be great with a 2 videographers shoot but not so much for solo shooters.

September 21st, 2018, 10:30 AM	#78
Steve Burkett Trustee Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Romsey, UK Posts: 1,261	Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings It's been confirmed that the Pocket 4K can fit onto the Ronin S, so I may well have a use for it at Weddings. I could use a dedicated camera just for gimbal, leaving my GH5s which I currently use as tripod only. The 50p 4K is of better quality on the Pocket, so would work well. Except for AF performance, but then Pansonic is hardly a winner there either. If the rumours about the Panasonic Fullframe are true, latest suggests both a budget and pro version both with IBIS, then next year's Wedding season could be much easier to film. Now if they can finally get AF right, all my problems will be sorted. Well those with my gear anyway.

September 22nd, 2018, 11:09 AM	#79
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings Great comments! Nice to share with pros. We try different things, not just cameras, tripods, monopods, lights, gimbals, they don't all work out as expected. Even between monopods, it would be easy to lump them together as if they all work the same benefit but they don't. Same with anything. A mistake for me is trying too hard to make something work that I have this picture in my mind is ideal, but once in the field of battle the problems are revealed, have to learn and move on. Speed and readiness most important, and a certain minimum level of acceptance. For example, it's twilight, it's been bright, the clouds roll in and wind picks up just as the bridal procession begins. There's no time to fumble with ND filters. Before you've gotten to that point there is so much to do, mic'ing the groom, plugging into pa or soundboard, recording acoustic musicians, having lights staged for the grand entrance/toasts, being able to switch from outside to inside shots, remembering how you have set your camera presets, remaining situationally aware to be in position for the shots and not forgetting where you have to be at any moment. For me, one of the keys is not to try and do too much and go into sensory overload, not try and combine too much complication. Make it as simple as possible. With so many great tools and options, it's easy to fall into traps, and fail to remember the most important thing is to keep a record button ready to press instantly.

September 23rd, 2018, 03:57 AM	#81
Steve Burkett Trustee Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Romsey, UK Posts: 1,261	Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings I've had photographers comment on the amount of gear and cameras I have. Then again I've encountered teams of 3 Photographers covering a Wedding not to mention those packed with lighting gear, lugging lighting stands, portable power packs and professional lights on outdoor shoots. So Photography doesn't always equal less gear. Though many get by on less. I never lose lens caps, it's always more important gear I've left behind and forcing me to return, sometimes the next day. Such experiences have helped me to adopt a work practise that minimalises such mistakes cos they are a pain in the ass when it happens and costly. The rumours of the fullframe Panasonic have led me to a few wobbles with my Pocket 4K pre-order, but the fact is 1. I can afford it. 2. I get to play with it over the quiet winter months. A few Personal projects to keep me busy. 3. It comes with Resolve, which was already on my radar, even if just for having non subscription based editing software. 4. Be nice to work with a non Panasonic camera for a change. 5. Image looks nice. As I've done some Photography work this year, a camera better than the GH5 is something I'm considering. Though I'm prepared to wait and see how this Panasonic rumour turns out. If not, I'd be more interested in Fuji or Nikon. Fuji do lovely colours, so as a proper hybrid I'd more pick that than Sony to be honest.

September 24th, 2018, 11:02 PM	#82
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings I am certain the BMP4K can be used, but I don't trust enough to go from the unboxing video to a paid wedding shoot, to not be skilled in its usage, to be caught by surprise by I can only imagine what, a long boot time, short battery life, problem seeing the lcd screen etc. It looks pretty good though with buttons on the outside. I never question what the 2nd shooter brings, but I am hoping he sure as hell knows what he's doing with it. Sometimes they appear on the outside secure and experienced, only to realize, he's not even pointed in the right direction. I always have an eye out, looking ahead of the viewfinder, looking for the upcoming action, keeping track of the other shooter, ready to change angles, and always before I stop recording. Personally, I am wary of FF for video, mainly due to size and weight. It's one thing to be a photographer, she swings the camera into a point, gets the shot, takes a different angle, shoots another. The videographer could be stuck hand holding the camera steady in one angle for an extended period, and he can't move or break the pose because if he does and there's no backup, the shot ends right there. That can be extremely tiring, you can't be too light, just remaining that still for a long time can wear you out. And yet, these hand held shots can be the best, better than what you get on the tripod, more dynamic, framed tighter, focus and zoom in synch with the action. Tripods and monopods are acceptable when everything is static, horrid when you move or recompose. I try to keep the tripod for a backup/safety shot, wide, don't change the framing composition, i.e. boring footage! But the handheld shots, they have a style and dynamic that keeps them interesting, even better than gimbal except for walking around, but even walking handheld can work. This is the advantage of dslr shooting style.

September 25th, 2018, 06:30 AM	#84
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings Size and weight is not a issue anymore with mirrorless full frame camera's, the a7III is smaller and lighter then a gh5, some lenses however can add quite a bit of weight.

September 25th, 2018, 07:31 AM	#86
Steve Burkett Trustee Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Romsey, UK Posts: 1,261	Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings Noa, you're speaking to a guy who pre ordered a pocket 4K back in April and who got the GH5 literally on the day of release and was shooting a Wedding with it 2 hours later. :) I go with my instincts with gear sometimes. Yeah I'm a bit concerned about the AF, but hoping that there's more to it. AF does work on the GH5, it's just unreliable. Apparently we have yet another update end of October to add some improvements. If they can eliminate the loss of focus at critical moments, then who knows, maybe DFD can work. We'll see. It's the only downer I can find so far in this camera. Either way, it's fullframe with 50p 4K. I can see it fitting in nicely with my other cameras. Rumours it can take MFT lenses with an adaptor would allow me to still make use of my current lenses in a pinch if needed. If I want fullframe, and it would be nice to have that option, then it's either this or Sony, or Nikon. Pansonic has served me well and I'm prepared to wait. I'll need further specs of course but what I've seen so far interest me.

September 25th, 2018, 01:01 PM	#87
Peter Riding Major Player Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Reading Berkshire UK Posts: 872	Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings I jumped in with great interest the moment the Panasonic email arrived with me at 13:49 this afternoon; I've used Panasonic a lot in the past. But soon I was feeling underwhelmed and the thoughts I'd made for myself have now been articulated by Tony Northrup in his initial video: Panasonic Lumix S1 & S1R Preview: Full-frame mirrorless, 4K/60, 47 megapixels! - YouTube He had even expressed what I was going through: "Is this the end for micro 4/3?" There are so many unknowns for now. It hadn't occurred to me that 4k 6fps might have to be cropped. Perhaps there will be a viable competitor to dual pixel auto-focus. Perhaps it will all come good. There is another new video. I tried to watch it but the editing is so awful I couldn't finish it: Panasonic LUMIX S1 and S1R Full Frame Cameras Explained â€“ Video Interview - YouTube BTW think carefully, very carefully, if you are considering the Nikon Z7 if your work involves a lot of low-light scenarios: Depressing Low-Light Specs of the Z7 - FM Forums Yikes.

September 26th, 2018, 03:37 AM	#90
Peter Riding Major Player Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Reading Berkshire UK Posts: 872	Re: 4K BM “pocket” camera for weddings Oh dear Steve you're coming across a bit bit shillish again :- ) Northrup isn't any old Youtuber, he has well over a million subscribers, has an enormous amount of detailed info online with just the odd bit of wrong info here and there (which he corrects when his detractors to their enormous delight find mistakes), and is one of the very first to get the physical gear from the manufacturers e.g. Canon EOS-R mirrorless. He has been a huge advocate of the GH5 / GH5s in the past though he seems to be less enamoured with them in recent months. Personally I've never liked what I regard as the CGI look of some of his GH5 videos. But the main thing that jumped out at me was that to all intents and purposes many people looking at the Panny full-frame and lenses will look at it as a complete change of system. Why do that when Nikon, Canon, and latterly Sony have vast and proven kit. And by the time the Panny bodies arrive next year and the more varied Panny lenses in 2020 the competition will have moved ahead as well. All the stuff about 4k and 10 bit and 4:2:2 etc sorry but you could not be more wrong. Kit for the masses is already close to mature. Just think what the audiophiles are like as a comparison; they bang on about features that no-one else knows about or cares about - they embarrass themselves. I do use a cinema audio system - 5.1 on a 7.1 AV receiver with KEF eggs but thats mainly because the recent flatscreen TVs have such poor onboard audio. My recent AV receiver does Dolby Atmos but I won't bother with that. I upgraded it because it does an Audio Return Channel and that wasn't available the last time I upgraded one 10 years ago. Does anyone bother having a separate CD amp anymore or separate speakers. Ha ha. My daughter can shoot 4k on her iphone. I can shoot 4k on my Galaxy S9. 4k is about as interesting as 3D and curved TVs :- ) Noa: Stop Press- Northrup does loads of extended training videos some 90 minutes and more and highly detailed. He could only report of the Panny fullframe details as they exist obviously but his channel is the go to place for first info as well as full-on.