The advantage of 4K at DVinfo.net

Noa Put · June 17th, 2018, 03:55 PM

A while back I came across a photographer who also started doing video and photo simultaniously. When he was asked why, he said if he needed to secure his income in the future he needed to do this so that his clients where more likely to book him. His videoservice was very simple in set up, when he would combine he only uses one videocamera with a external mike on top and that's it so his main focus remains photography and video is more of a addition, not a replacement for a actual videographer.

I don't have any ambition of doing 2 jobs at the same time but I just recently have started to sell 4K framegrabs from my films as I shoot 4K exclusively now on all my camera's and to my surprise it is catching on, I have one client who booked a photographer untill the reception and they where going to rely on framegrabs from the evening part from my film to have some extra "photo's" as I charge a lot less for that option then what they had to pay the photographer for his extra time.

They know it is not a replacement for photography but rather a addition and they know about the limitations like lower resolution then photos, no flash used but only available light.

For me it's no extra work the day of the wedding, only during the editing process and the frames come out pretty nice.

A second client whos wedding I recently shot contacted me today as they saw the option on my website and wanted to have those frames as well (I supply 50 frames out of their highlights and process them in lightroom to "clean" them up a bit.)

I"m also offering a 4K film as a paid option which is mainly renderingtime that I am charging extra, just another advantage of shooting in 4K, something that can be used as long as 4K is not expected as standard delivery and about half of my weddings I have to shoot this year are all HD and 4K requests.

I remember not that long ago when there where discussions about the logic of shooting 4K while still people ask for dvd's but I see a clear change in the clients expectations since this year. I also remember discussions about photographers who where taking clients from us by starting to offer simple short form video as well but now I see the same happening with videography where we can have a impact on the amount of hours a photographer is hired.

I don't see any of this as negative, it just creates opportunities for both video- and photographers but there is no denying that 4K and maybe not that long from now 8K will continue to create possibilities and it's best to take advantage from it, or not, and keep selling dvd's to your clients :)

Chris Harding · June 17th, 2018, 06:59 PM

Makes sense Noa! The technology is there so why not use it. Even my humble little FZ Lumix's can manage an 8 megapixel frame grab from 4K footage and most brides are going to make themselves a pretty standard wedding album so that's plenty of resolution for even 8"x10" and not many brides are likely to get themselves a 4' x 6' wall print.

I actually saved a photographer's bacon once with a frame grab too (sadly it was only a 1920x1080 format) as the couple's "you may kiss the bride" lasted about half a second and the photographer missed it BUT we had it on video and could give him a frame grab.

I can see this working well with ceremonies and receptions but if they dispense with the photographer totally family groups would be better as stills !

Ron Evans · June 17th, 2018, 07:07 PM

Even shooting theatre UHD has a real advantage in that other than really closeups one camera can capture everything. I would love an 8K cameras as the closeups would come too. I now use UHD for the full stage camera and can cover all medium shots with that one camera with pans and zooms I could never do manually. Timed perfectly to meet the situation. And no colour corrections going between cameras !!! Output in the main is still DVD.

Nigel Barker · June 18th, 2018, 03:10 AM

The good thing about 4K framegrabs is that you have plenty to choose from. When shooting 50fps you are bound to be able to find ones where nobody has their eyes shut etc & they are going to be great for the candid documentary style photos.

Where framegrabs won't work is for the formal or 'arty' shots or anywhere that more stylised photography with flash etc would be used. In many of the weddings in the UK the reception gets held in a marquee which delivers the most insipid flat lighting. Its not so bad for video when at least the people are moving but still photos taken without flash to give some sculpting will look pretty dreary.

Roger Gunkel · June 18th, 2018, 03:29 AM

For video only, I have been taking frame grabs for as far back as I can remember, to finish the video with a series of stills and thanks. Since filming everything in 4k from a couple of years back, I have taken several weddings where they decided not to have a photographer and I have given them a series of stills from the video.

As most of our weddings are combined photo and video packages, there are many occasions where a frame grab from 4k gives a still that just wouldn't have been possible with a stills camera. One regular example would be during a church ceremony, where vicars frequently will not allow still photography during the ceremony because they consider it a distraction. Other opportunities are grabs from cameras from different angles.

Another advantage with 4k filming whilst taking stills with a dslr camera, is that I can take a wider view with the video, knowing that I can crop, zoom, pan etc in post. Particularly useful whilst I am taking group and romantic stills. I can't see frame grabs from video completely replacing a stills photographer as video is best when people are less aware of it. Photography on the other hand is a different skill, requiring much more cooperation from the subjects. The photographer needs to have a much more up front relationship with the family and friends to get the best from them, and wedding guests usually require organising or they just mill about aimlessly. Photography is a focal point of the day, video isn't.

I can though, see photographers moving away from a conventional stills camera in the future in favour of a video based format. The posing and organising requirement would be the same, but there would be far more chances to get shots that are easily missed with a dslr.

Roger

Noa Put · June 18th, 2018, 03:40 AM

I forgot to mention the cropping into the footage which is something I can't use when I deliver in 4K, I can crop in a little but it's much more limited then when I deliver in HD but in Ron's case it's a clear advantage, for stageshows the request for 4K delivery will take a lot longer, when the first 8K camera's comes out and if you deliver in HD you could set up a camera, hit record and come back when it's done :)

As for taking frames out the film instead of photography, I do explain my clients that it is not a replacement for photography but more a addition and that it cannot be compared to a dedicated phtographer. They allready know what they are getting as they get to see the highlight first so they know that any frames they will get will come from that film. In darker venues it's more challenging to get good looking frames out if all you get is candlelight tables, using fast lenses and lightsensitive camera's that can produce clean footage at higher iso's is a must allthough that little fine grain in your shots can look "arty" as well :)

Rob Cantwell · June 19th, 2018, 07:07 AM

you can turn those grainy ones to black & white - always looks arty!!

;-)

Noa Put · June 19th, 2018, 07:33 AM

and charge extra for it because it's "special"

Steve Burkett · June 19th, 2018, 01:50 PM

I've exclusively filmed in 4K since November 2014, although initially I had 2nd and 3rd cameras in HD. By May 2016, nearly all my cameras were recording 4K and by August that year, all were and I've never looked back.

I just love the look of 4K. HD seems quite soft and lacking in detail in comparison. Plus I've been running video stills as an extra for years and it's really taken off since 4K came along. The quality had been there and my clients have clearly noticed. The requests I've had for this service has increased by 8 times since 4K was introduced to my filming.

Technology has increased so much since I first started. Back in 2005, I felt innovative to be shooting widescreen in SD, now I'm shooting 4K in 10 bit, with vLog and using LUTs to not only preview in camera but convert in edit. Wedding Videography has changed so much from the cheesy videos of the 80s and that's a quote from a client and not me. :)

Nigel Barker · June 21st, 2018, 02:49 AM

I think that I shared this image before but this is a still off a 1080p timeline from a wedding I shot in 2012 when I was using a C300. i can only imagine the detail & quality from a similar still grabbed off a 4K timeline from a C200 or C300 II today. Click on the image to view at full resolution.

June 17th, 2018, 03:55 PM	#1
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	The advantage of 4K A while back I came across a photographer who also started doing video and photo simultaniously. When he was asked why, he said if he needed to secure his income in the future he needed to do this so that his clients where more likely to book him. His videoservice was very simple in set up, when he would combine he only uses one videocamera with a external mike on top and that's it so his main focus remains photography and video is more of a addition, not a replacement for a actual videographer. I don't have any ambition of doing 2 jobs at the same time but I just recently have started to sell 4K framegrabs from my films as I shoot 4K exclusively now on all my camera's and to my surprise it is catching on, I have one client who booked a photographer untill the reception and they where going to rely on framegrabs from the evening part from my film to have some extra "photo's" as I charge a lot less for that option then what they had to pay the photographer for his extra time. They know it is not a replacement for photography but rather a addition and they know about the limitations like lower resolution then photos, no flash used but only available light. For me it's no extra work the day of the wedding, only during the editing process and the frames come out pretty nice. A second client whos wedding I recently shot contacted me today as they saw the option on my website and wanted to have those frames as well (I supply 50 frames out of their highlights and process them in lightroom to "clean" them up a bit.) I"m also offering a 4K film as a paid option which is mainly renderingtime that I am charging extra, just another advantage of shooting in 4K, something that can be used as long as 4K is not expected as standard delivery and about half of my weddings I have to shoot this year are all HD and 4K requests. I remember not that long ago when there where discussions about the logic of shooting 4K while still people ask for dvd's but I see a clear change in the clients expectations since this year. I also remember discussions about photographers who where taking clients from us by starting to offer simple short form video as well but now I see the same happening with videography where we can have a impact on the amount of hours a photographer is hired. I don't see any of this as negative, it just creates opportunities for both video- and photographers but there is no denying that 4K and maybe not that long from now 8K will continue to create possibilities and it's best to take advantage from it, or not, and keep selling dvd's to your clients :)

June 17th, 2018, 06:59 PM	#2
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: The advantage of 4K Makes sense Noa! The technology is there so why not use it. Even my humble little FZ Lumix's can manage an 8 megapixel frame grab from 4K footage and most brides are going to make themselves a pretty standard wedding album so that's plenty of resolution for even 8"x10" and not many brides are likely to get themselves a 4' x 6' wall print. I actually saved a photographer's bacon once with a frame grab too (sadly it was only a 1920x1080 format) as the couple's "you may kiss the bride" lasted about half a second and the photographer missed it BUT we had it on video and could give him a frame grab. I can see this working well with ceremonies and receptions but if they dispense with the photographer totally family groups would be better as stills !

June 17th, 2018, 07:07 PM	#3
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,222	Re: The advantage of 4K Even shooting theatre UHD has a real advantage in that other than really closeups one camera can capture everything. I would love an 8K cameras as the closeups would come too. I now use UHD for the full stage camera and can cover all medium shots with that one camera with pans and zooms I could never do manually. Timed perfectly to meet the situation. And no colour corrections going between cameras !!! Output in the main is still DVD.

June 18th, 2018, 03:10 AM	#4
Nigel Barker Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK Posts: 3,531	Re: The advantage of 4K The good thing about 4K framegrabs is that you have plenty to choose from. When shooting 50fps you are bound to be able to find ones where nobody has their eyes shut etc & they are going to be great for the candid documentary style photos. Where framegrabs won't work is for the formal or 'arty' shots or anywhere that more stylised photography with flash etc would be used. In many of the weddings in the UK the reception gets held in a marquee which delivers the most insipid flat lighting. Its not so bad for video when at least the people are moving but still photos taken without flash to give some sculpting will look pretty dreary.

June 18th, 2018, 03:29 AM	#5
Roger Gunkel Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: LIncolnshire, UK Posts: 2,213	Re: The advantage of 4K For video only, I have been taking frame grabs for as far back as I can remember, to finish the video with a series of stills and thanks. Since filming everything in 4k from a couple of years back, I have taken several weddings where they decided not to have a photographer and I have given them a series of stills from the video. As most of our weddings are combined photo and video packages, there are many occasions where a frame grab from 4k gives a still that just wouldn't have been possible with a stills camera. One regular example would be during a church ceremony, where vicars frequently will not allow still photography during the ceremony because they consider it a distraction. Other opportunities are grabs from cameras from different angles. Another advantage with 4k filming whilst taking stills with a dslr camera, is that I can take a wider view with the video, knowing that I can crop, zoom, pan etc in post. Particularly useful whilst I am taking group and romantic stills. I can't see frame grabs from video completely replacing a stills photographer as video is best when people are less aware of it. Photography on the other hand is a different skill, requiring much more cooperation from the subjects. The photographer needs to have a much more up front relationship with the family and friends to get the best from them, and wedding guests usually require organising or they just mill about aimlessly. Photography is a focal point of the day, video isn't. I can though, see photographers moving away from a conventional stills camera in the future in favour of a video based format. The posing and organising requirement would be the same, but there would be far more chances to get shots that are easily missed with a dslr. Roger

June 18th, 2018, 03:40 AM	#6
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: The advantage of 4K I forgot to mention the cropping into the footage which is something I can't use when I deliver in 4K, I can crop in a little but it's much more limited then when I deliver in HD but in Ron's case it's a clear advantage, for stageshows the request for 4K delivery will take a lot longer, when the first 8K camera's comes out and if you deliver in HD you could set up a camera, hit record and come back when it's done :) As for taking frames out the film instead of photography, I do explain my clients that it is not a replacement for photography but more a addition and that it cannot be compared to a dedicated phtographer. They allready know what they are getting as they get to see the highlight first so they know that any frames they will get will come from that film. In darker venues it's more challenging to get good looking frames out if all you get is candlelight tables, using fast lenses and lightsensitive camera's that can produce clean footage at higher iso's is a must allthough that little fine grain in your shots can look "arty" as well :)

June 19th, 2018, 07:07 AM	#7
Rob Cantwell Major Player Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Tipperary, Ireland Posts: 624	Re: The advantage of 4K you can turn those grainy ones to black & white - always looks arty!! ;-) __________________ http://www.robertcantwell.com

June 19th, 2018, 07:33 AM	#8
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: The advantage of 4K and charge extra for it because it's "special"

June 19th, 2018, 01:50 PM	#9
Steve Burkett Trustee Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Romsey, UK Posts: 1,261	Re: The advantage of 4K I've exclusively filmed in 4K since November 2014, although initially I had 2nd and 3rd cameras in HD. By May 2016, nearly all my cameras were recording 4K and by August that year, all were and I've never looked back. I just love the look of 4K. HD seems quite soft and lacking in detail in comparison. Plus I've been running video stills as an extra for years and it's really taken off since 4K came along. The quality had been there and my clients have clearly noticed. The requests I've had for this service has increased by 8 times since 4K was introduced to my filming. Technology has increased so much since I first started. Back in 2005, I felt innovative to be shooting widescreen in SD, now I'm shooting 4K in 10 bit, with vLog and using LUTs to not only preview in camera but convert in edit. Wedding Videography has changed so much from the cheesy videos of the 80s and that's a quote from a client and not me. :)

June 21st, 2018, 02:49 AM	#10
Nigel Barker Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK Posts: 3,531	Re: The advantage of 4K I think that I shared this image before but this is a still off a 1080p timeline from a wedding I shot in 2012 when I was using a C300. i can only imagine the detail & quality from a similar still grabbed off a 4K timeline from a C200 or C300 II today. Click on the image to view at full resolution. Attached Thumbnails