Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited

Chris Harding · October 14th, 2018, 06:45 PM

Hi Steve

If you create your own content then you have a choice and can add royalty free music to your production or even no music at all. We are talking here about a dance recital where the studio chooses the music and you are simply there to film it and have no say about the music. Whether you have the people buy a DVD with copyright music or have a link to a private server with copyright music I cannot see the difference at all. You are not blatantly exposing the music on line to the general public. I mainly do wedding ceremonies and I'm sure the bride would be overjoyed if you told her she couldn't use Ed Sheeran as her walk in song and had to use some royalty free music. If that were the case she would probably say "well I won't have a video then if you can't capture it as it happens" Surely it's just as illegal to hand a client a DVD or USB with copyright music on it.

Steve Burkett · October 15th, 2018, 12:33 AM

Hi Chris,

In the UK, you can pay a license fee that allows you to use copyright music for videos, but only for DVD distribution. Not sure if it includes USB and definitely doesn't include online distribution. As you saying makes no sense as a video I release privately online for the couple to view is no different than giving them a DVD. People can copy DVDs or show them to others at large get togethers. In fact I've got a few bookings from friends who saw the full length video whilst visiting the couple. No different than them giving a password over to an online video.

When I create my own content, I use royalty free or licensed music, but for Weddings I am more limited. My Full Length contains natural audio and so obviously contains copyright music for the Ceremony, couple entrance to the Wedding Breakfast, 1st Dance and of course if they have a band, they're singing covers of copyright music.

If I was delivering short 20 min videos my options would be easier. Less need for live audio. But if I get ask to film and include in full, a Michael Jackson tribute singer doing a 40 minute set, I've got no choice other than to refuse and which case, they'll go elsewhere.

The UKs current license for handling this is limited and could use modernising. Especially as DVD production is becoming a thing of the past for many video companies.

Chris Harding · October 15th, 2018, 08:09 AM

Hi Steve

Our laws are much the same except they are so antiquated that they don't mention USB's ..You are allowed to produce up to 20 DVD's per client and they in turn are not allowed to show the video to a group of more than 20 people otherwise it's classed as a public performance!!! Of course online videos are classed as broadcasting yet every traditional videographer will put up samples on their website and use copyright music so the whole system is a joke to say the least. As we are still a British Colony I would suspect both countries would have the same system for weddings.

I was chatting to a fellow videographer in the USA and they seem to have nothing like we have so I guess they live on a knife edge for each wedding!! I wonder what the dance recital guys do about music copyright in the USA?

David Banner · October 16th, 2018, 11:30 AM

Dance rectitals are an unusual situation. In my corporate productions, I license the music or use royalty-free music properly licensed. YouTube still flags it even when I fill out the info. In wedding videos I do the same. If a bride asks about syncing a top 40 hit to her highlight video I say, no, if I cannot license it from one of the sites. The selection of popular music is small from those sites.
Virtually all my competitors continuously use whatever music they want with no concern or attempt to license it which gives a big advantage over me.

For dance recitals my contract has the studio sign that they have proper clearance rights for wardrobe and music. Do they really? I don't know. I doubt it. I am hired to record the event.

If I were to try to clear all the songs they use in just one recital the conversation would go something like this:
Dear dance studio, it will cost me $1,700,000 and about 6 months to 3 years to clear the music, and some of the songs cannot be cleared at all. You understand and will gladly pay this and be patient during this process right? I realize little Suzy will be have left elementary school and be in Jr High by then but that is still okay, right?

Cary Knoop · October 16th, 2018, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Banner

Dance rectitals are an unusual situation. In my corporate productions, I license the music or use royalty-free music properly licensed. YouTube still flags it even when I fill out the info.

Youtube automatically flags it, they obviously do not know that you have a license. If you reply and provide info on the license and it is rejected that is not YouTube's fault, you need to knock on the door who licensed you the music, they are the ones rejecting it not YouTube.

Again I do not understand all this negativity about YouTube, they are the only platform that actually works with the license holders to obtain arrangements for you to actually publish unlicensed material with the price of having ads shown. Something I find entirely reasonable. And yes, some music may not be available, but most is nowadays.

Paul Mailath · October 17th, 2018, 04:40 AM

I believe you will have the same problem with vimeo that you do with youtube - playing the music that the studio used on the day will get your content flagged quickly and you'll spend way too much time fighting it.

The Australian licence mentions video rather than DVD now (an attempt at modernisation?) and does allow uploading of videos to the web as long as they have a password (that came in last year) unfortunately uploading to youtube or vimeo and quoting your licence means nothing since they are in the US and operate under US law.

If Australia & the UK had a local provider, things might be dramatically different.

I'm actually considering setting up my own synology server to show my videos, while it won't have the distribution that a vimeo or youtube has - I don't need that, I only need people in my target area to be able to watch and share the videos.

Chris Harding · October 18th, 2018, 06:12 PM

Good post Paul

With events like dance recitals the object of the exercise is to provide online distribution to a select few parents only so places like vimeo and youtube who specialise in mass distribution to millions of people are not really a good suggestion as you only want to be able to distribute your content to those you have paid to watch the content. A private server would actually be ideal and with recitals you are looking at strictly local people rather than a world wide audience. With our weddings we do have overseas audiences so mirror servers are often needed as we could have people in Brazil and the UK who want to watch our live stream but need it private. Would a standard USA web host site not work or are those too slow for video? My web host in LA gives me unlimited space and more importantly unlimited bandwidth for a low price but I'm not sure how it would handle a few hundred people all watching an event at the same time?

Paul R Johnson · October 19th, 2018, 02:47 AM

Even Vimeo cause me grief now - Ironically last year one video I made was specifically for the UK copyright agency - they didn't want just the usual audio recording, they wanted the video - this increased the circulation, so I popped it on Vimeo and sent them the URL and the password. Vimeo pulled it for copyright reasons. It contained material that was flagged as protected. Indeed it was, and that is what it was for! It is getting very silly now. I popped it on my music download server and that worked fine. As to bandwidth charges? I have no idea as my agreement doesn't seem to make finding out this info very easy?

Chris Harding · October 19th, 2018, 05:59 AM

Hi Paul

I have been with Powweb for the last 18 years and when I log onto their control panel for the usual domain and website management mine does have a section which tells me how much space I have used and what my limit is and then what bandwidth I have used and also my limit but both limits are "unlimited"

Australia web hosts are pathetic with bandwidth allocations but the USA have such huge server farms they don't seem to worry about bandwidth in most cases. For our videos we use Livestream because our subscription account has unlimited storage and unlimited live viewers which is quite important as some of our gigs might only have 50 viewers and some as many as 15,000 ... I know some CDN's charge for "views" rather than allowing as many as happen to watch the video.

The only question that hasn't been answered yet is IF one uploaded (even live) to a standard large web hosting company and 10,000 people decided to watch the live broadcast would the mass of viewers throttle a standard server?? That's why for now we pay over US$1000.00 per annum to host and backup our live video but because we have clients paying us it is actually a small charge only per gig!!

Ian Skurrie · October 19th, 2018, 11:13 PM

I suggest that if you allow a password controlled digital download from a service like google where they are forced to download rather than stream, then bandwidth is not so important. You could cut off access after several weeks to reduce the chance of misuse or unintended distribution of the password. Just to cover the plethora of formats supported by modern TV's you could make available the content in a couple of file formats.

Ian S

Jane Bradley · November 9th, 2018, 08:58 AM

Can anyone provide some insight as to the legality of offering digital files/downloads/streaming in the US? I have been wanting to offer these to my dance recital studios for years, but haven't due to the complex and outdated laws.

My understanding is that the studios are responsible for the fees associated with the music copyrights (BMI, ASCAP & SESAC). Even those are limited as it appears that they are only good for one production per year???

As videographers, we have to deal with obtaining a video sync license (to sync our video with their copyrighted music) and a master use license, and possibly more ...

Has anyone consulted with an IP attorney to know exactly what's involved with protecting ourselves and our many customers who will ultimately share our (possibly illegal) video all over the internet?

The laws are definitely lagging behind the times, and I'm worried that this huge movement away from discs to online viewing/downloading/sharing may cause some serious damage to the small businesses that rely heavily on this income for survival.

Thoughts?

Chris Harding · November 9th, 2018, 06:29 PM

Hi Jane

Before you even consider obtaining a legal online download system in the USA, may I ask how legal are your DVD's you distribute. As far as I know with US copyright even producing DVD's isn't 100% legal as far as the copyright owners are concerned or can you get a sync licence that adequately covers you 100% when you sell DVD's ?

Jane Bradley · November 10th, 2018, 12:16 PM

You are correct, Chris. As I mentioned, my understanding is videographers are supposed to get sync licenses, master use licenses, and possibly others, which is what I was looking to others to see if they've gone down the legal path. What I'm hearing from most is DVDs/Blu-rays was the lesser of two evils being, I guess, less risky; but, customers don't want that and computers don't come with DVD/Blu-ray players anymore. And, as we know, once it is shared online, it becomes much more risky for all involved. Since my last post, I came across an article about proposed legislation: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/28/b...-services.html, which refers to the Music Modernization Act of 2018: https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-...t%22%5D%7D&r=3. Until then...???

Chris Harding · November 11th, 2018, 02:34 AM

Thanks Jane

Yeah I would be pretty sure that people who shoot dance recitals and sell DVD's don't pay the required prices for using the music .. seriously, if they did it would be thousands and thousands more than they actually make from the performance. I don't really know what the answer is but I could never see videographers going thru channels to obtain clearance ..For the ones I used to do I simply filmed them and the studio did the distribution ..I figured that way if there was a copyright claim the studio would need to sort it out. I see a lot of videographers just charge the studio for their time and parents pay a fee added into their daughter's dance lessons ...then the DVD's are sorta free but I have no idea how legal that is?? The BIG problem is that if others are doing recitals they would be reluctant to say "This is how I get away with it" so you will never know.

Paul R Johnson · November 11th, 2018, 04:14 PM

I used to do that, until a legal friend of mine pointed out that the law (at least in the UK) doesn't allow the responsibility to be passed on. Who does the deed is apparently how the law sees it. If you client says Can you add the ABBA songs to that video please, I'll take full responsibility and get the clearances, AND they put it in writing - if they don't, then you did the deed, and you are the one who is liable. I'm pretty sure this is common in most legals systems. After all, the hit-man does the murder, and the time, no matter who paid them.

October 14th, 2018, 06:45 PM	#31
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited Hi Steve If you create your own content then you have a choice and can add royalty free music to your production or even no music at all. We are talking here about a dance recital where the studio chooses the music and you are simply there to film it and have no say about the music. Whether you have the people buy a DVD with copyright music or have a link to a private server with copyright music I cannot see the difference at all. You are not blatantly exposing the music on line to the general public. I mainly do wedding ceremonies and I'm sure the bride would be overjoyed if you told her she couldn't use Ed Sheeran as her walk in song and had to use some royalty free music. If that were the case she would probably say "well I won't have a video then if you can't capture it as it happens" Surely it's just as illegal to hand a client a DVD or USB with copyright music on it.

October 15th, 2018, 12:33 AM	#32
Steve Burkett Trustee Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Romsey, UK Posts: 1,261	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited Hi Chris, In the UK, you can pay a license fee that allows you to use copyright music for videos, but only for DVD distribution. Not sure if it includes USB and definitely doesn't include online distribution. As you saying makes no sense as a video I release privately online for the couple to view is no different than giving them a DVD. People can copy DVDs or show them to others at large get togethers. In fact I've got a few bookings from friends who saw the full length video whilst visiting the couple. No different than them giving a password over to an online video. When I create my own content, I use royalty free or licensed music, but for Weddings I am more limited. My Full Length contains natural audio and so obviously contains copyright music for the Ceremony, couple entrance to the Wedding Breakfast, 1st Dance and of course if they have a band, they're singing covers of copyright music. If I was delivering short 20 min videos my options would be easier. Less need for live audio. But if I get ask to film and include in full, a Michael Jackson tribute singer doing a 40 minute set, I've got no choice other than to refuse and which case, they'll go elsewhere. The UKs current license for handling this is limited and could use modernising. Especially as DVD production is becoming a thing of the past for many video companies.

October 15th, 2018, 08:09 AM	#33
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited Hi Steve Our laws are much the same except they are so antiquated that they don't mention USB's ..You are allowed to produce up to 20 DVD's per client and they in turn are not allowed to show the video to a group of more than 20 people otherwise it's classed as a public performance!!! Of course online videos are classed as broadcasting yet every traditional videographer will put up samples on their website and use copyright music so the whole system is a joke to say the least. As we are still a British Colony I would suspect both countries would have the same system for weddings. I was chatting to a fellow videographer in the USA and they seem to have nothing like we have so I guess they live on a knife edge for each wedding!! I wonder what the dance recital guys do about music copyright in the USA?

October 16th, 2018, 11:30 AM	#34
David Banner Major Player Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Bentonville, AR Posts: 239	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited Dance rectitals are an unusual situation. In my corporate productions, I license the music or use royalty-free music properly licensed. YouTube still flags it even when I fill out the info. In wedding videos I do the same. If a bride asks about syncing a top 40 hit to her highlight video I say, no, if I cannot license it from one of the sites. The selection of popular music is small from those sites. Virtually all my competitors continuously use whatever music they want with no concern or attempt to license it which gives a big advantage over me. For dance recitals my contract has the studio sign that they have proper clearance rights for wardrobe and music. Do they really? I don't know. I doubt it. I am hired to record the event. If I were to try to clear all the songs they use in just one recital the conversation would go something like this: Dear dance studio, it will cost me $1,700,000 and about 6 months to 3 years to clear the music, and some of the songs cannot be cleared at all. You understand and will gladly pay this and be patient during this process right? I realize little Suzy will be have left elementary school and be in Jr High by then but that is still okay, right?

October 17th, 2018, 04:40 AM	#36
Paul Mailath Trustee Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Central Coast - NSW, Australia Posts: 1,606	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited I believe you will have the same problem with vimeo that you do with youtube - playing the music that the studio used on the day will get your content flagged quickly and you'll spend way too much time fighting it. The Australian licence mentions video rather than DVD now (an attempt at modernisation?) and does allow uploading of videos to the web as long as they have a password (that came in last year) unfortunately uploading to youtube or vimeo and quoting your licence means nothing since they are in the US and operate under US law. If Australia & the UK had a local provider, things might be dramatically different. I'm actually considering setting up my own synology server to show my videos, while it won't have the distribution that a vimeo or youtube has - I don't need that, I only need people in my target area to be able to watch and share the videos. __________________ Cheers - Paul M. www.perbenyik.com

October 18th, 2018, 06:12 PM	#37
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited Good post Paul With events like dance recitals the object of the exercise is to provide online distribution to a select few parents only so places like vimeo and youtube who specialise in mass distribution to millions of people are not really a good suggestion as you only want to be able to distribute your content to those you have paid to watch the content. A private server would actually be ideal and with recitals you are looking at strictly local people rather than a world wide audience. With our weddings we do have overseas audiences so mirror servers are often needed as we could have people in Brazil and the UK who want to watch our live stream but need it private. Would a standard USA web host site not work or are those too slow for video? My web host in LA gives me unlimited space and more importantly unlimited bandwidth for a low price but I'm not sure how it would handle a few hundred people all watching an event at the same time?

October 19th, 2018, 02:47 AM	#38
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited Even Vimeo cause me grief now - Ironically last year one video I made was specifically for the UK copyright agency - they didn't want just the usual audio recording, they wanted the video - this increased the circulation, so I popped it on Vimeo and sent them the URL and the password. Vimeo pulled it for copyright reasons. It contained material that was flagged as protected. Indeed it was, and that is what it was for! It is getting very silly now. I popped it on my music download server and that worked fine. As to bandwidth charges? I have no idea as my agreement doesn't seem to make finding out this info very easy?

October 19th, 2018, 05:59 AM	#39
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited Hi Paul I have been with Powweb for the last 18 years and when I log onto their control panel for the usual domain and website management mine does have a section which tells me how much space I have used and what my limit is and then what bandwidth I have used and also my limit but both limits are "unlimited" Australia web hosts are pathetic with bandwidth allocations but the USA have such huge server farms they don't seem to worry about bandwidth in most cases. For our videos we use Livestream because our subscription account has unlimited storage and unlimited live viewers which is quite important as some of our gigs might only have 50 viewers and some as many as 15,000 ... I know some CDN's charge for "views" rather than allowing as many as happen to watch the video. The only question that hasn't been answered yet is IF one uploaded (even live) to a standard large web hosting company and 10,000 people decided to watch the live broadcast would the mass of viewers throttle a standard server?? That's why for now we pay over US$1000.00 per annum to host and backup our live video but because we have clients paying us it is actually a small charge only per gig!!

October 19th, 2018, 11:13 PM	#40
Ian Skurrie Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Mooroolbark, Victoria, AU Posts: 63	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited I suggest that if you allow a password controlled digital download from a service like google where they are forced to download rather than stream, then bandwidth is not so important. You could cut off access after several weeks to reduce the chance of misuse or unintended distribution of the password. Just to cover the plethora of formats supported by modern TV's you could make available the content in a couple of file formats. Ian S

November 9th, 2018, 08:58 AM	#41
Jane Bradley Tourist Join Date: Nov 2018 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 4	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited Can anyone provide some insight as to the legality of offering digital files/downloads/streaming in the US? I have been wanting to offer these to my dance recital studios for years, but haven't due to the complex and outdated laws. My understanding is that the studios are responsible for the fees associated with the music copyrights (BMI, ASCAP & SESAC). Even those are limited as it appears that they are only good for one production per year??? As videographers, we have to deal with obtaining a video sync license (to sync our video with their copyrighted music) and a master use license, and possibly more ... Has anyone consulted with an IP attorney to know exactly what's involved with protecting ourselves and our many customers who will ultimately share our (possibly illegal) video all over the internet? The laws are definitely lagging behind the times, and I'm worried that this huge movement away from discs to online viewing/downloading/sharing may cause some serious damage to the small businesses that rely heavily on this income for survival. Thoughts?

November 9th, 2018, 06:29 PM	#42
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited Hi Jane Before you even consider obtaining a legal online download system in the USA, may I ask how legal are your DVD's you distribute. As far as I know with US copyright even producing DVD's isn't 100% legal as far as the copyright owners are concerned or can you get a sync licence that adequately covers you 100% when you sell DVD's ?

November 10th, 2018, 12:16 PM	#43
Jane Bradley Tourist Join Date: Nov 2018 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 4	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited You are correct, Chris. As I mentioned, my understanding is videographers are supposed to get sync licenses, master use licenses, and possibly others, which is what I was looking to others to see if they've gone down the legal path. What I'm hearing from most is DVDs/Blu-rays was the lesser of two evils being, I guess, less risky; but, customers don't want that and computers don't come with DVD/Blu-ray players anymore. And, as we know, once it is shared online, it becomes much more risky for all involved. Since my last post, I came across an article about proposed legislation: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/28/b...-services.html, which refers to the Music Modernization Act of 2018: https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-...t%22%5D%7D&r=3. Until then...???

November 11th, 2018, 02:34 AM	#44
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited Thanks Jane Yeah I would be pretty sure that people who shoot dance recitals and sell DVD's don't pay the required prices for using the music .. seriously, if they did it would be thousands and thousands more than they actually make from the performance. I don't really know what the answer is but I could never see videographers going thru channels to obtain clearance ..For the ones I used to do I simply filmed them and the studio did the distribution ..I figured that way if there was a copyright claim the studio would need to sort it out. I see a lot of videographers just charge the studio for their time and parents pay a fee added into their daughter's dance lessons ...then the DVD's are sorta free but I have no idea how legal that is?? The BIG problem is that if others are doing recitals they would be reluctant to say "This is how I get away with it" so you will never know.

November 11th, 2018, 04:14 PM	#45
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Revisited I used to do that, until a legal friend of mine pointed out that the law (at least in the UK) doesn't allow the responsibility to be passed on. Who does the deed is apparently how the law sees it. If you client says Can you add the ABBA songs to that video please, I'll take full responsibility and get the clearances, AND they put it in writing - if they don't, then you did the deed, and you are the one who is liable. I'm pretty sure this is common in most legals systems. After all, the hit-man does the murder, and the time, no matter who paid them.