Dance Recital Video Distribution

Tracy Painter · February 1st, 2018, 01:44 PM

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to reply.

After a little more research it seems that Vimeo might be an option. I would use the private folder setting and send out a link to the folder. I would upload each dance. People would then have the option to download just their child's dance numbers or simply watch the streaming video on Vimeo.

The key is to have the studios pay for this service up front. I will be approaching the studios with this idea this year to perhaps implement it next (2019) year.

Has anyone tried this type of distribution model?

Pete Cofrancesco · February 1st, 2018, 04:14 PM

I’m moving in that direction. Like you said it works best if people pre-order it takes out the whole sharing link issue.It have to be done on a studio basis. It also adds a layer of complexity if some parents want the dvd. People in general likd getting something physical. There is also the added expense of Vimeo currently $7/month for the Plus account, $20/month for Pro that allows direct sales. No private links with the free basic and upload cap prevents you from uploading the entire show..

Vince Baker · February 15th, 2018, 04:08 AM

Interesting thread, I like that this subject comes back up every year as gives a great view on how close we are getting to the demise of DVD as a delivery medium.

I fully agree that the end is still nowhere in sight and that DVD still seems to be the go to media of choice for Dance recital distribution.

Interestingly, figures last year for me were 4000 DVDs versus 93 Blu-rays and each event gives the option of the two. Yes, the price is higher for Blu-ray, but seems almost all just go for DVD as they are happy with that quality for the purpose of watching back a dance recital.

I am not sure if that relates the same to the wedding industry, but I don't film weddings so cannot comment...

I have been looking around for a few years now at an alternative, not to move to it now but to start to prepare as one day I am sure DVD will not be the way forward. Previously I agreed that the only way to achieve digital distribution would be for a single charge to the dance company rather than selling units, but as all my customers are used to the unit sale I really feel this will be a tough sell.

Looking at Vimeo's solution, it is a step forward but still I believe without having a single upfront package price for the school and giving them out a single password it just is too risky as people will share the password, annoying but I feel true.

One interesting alternative is https://mediazilla.com, It is for me the closest to what I am looking for at the moment. There is still some potential risk but as it requires the purchaser to create an account using their email and creating a password this feels a little bit more secure (it really isn't, but it gives the idea that sharing their email address and password login seems a bit risky, so may stop people from doing so). The actual delivery of the files looks fabulous, with an actual AppleTV app it is truly a stunning delivery method... The real thing that puts me off is the name though, anything for me with "INSERTNAMEHEREzilla" just sounds a bit like a dodgy download site, but if more companies offer a similar product I really feel there maybe something for us small companies to use as a digital delivery method... lets face it, we won't ever be appearing in iTunes in an affordable way so we need someone to make us something.

Interesting to see if you have heard of mediazilla, used it, how did you find it, have you found anything else similar?

Vince

David Barnett · February 15th, 2018, 10:12 AM

To answer your question about weddings. I shoot them, and rarely do couple select Blu Ray. Occasionally they ask, but then they realize their parents don't have one, or maybe even they don't, and they go with DVD. I supply a USB as well so they know they are 'future proof'. With that said, while Blu Ray is relatively common for Netflix, Redbox, Best Buy etc, I agree in that I don't think its the way forward for event delivery.

As for dance recitals, I don't shoot them but I've read a bit in the threads. It seems to 2 models going forward are "PPV", like you said mediazilla, or just having the dance studio price an extra $10/$20 into their classes. Seems that would work if you are already on good grounds with a studio/instructor, and continue billing whatever you averaged in DVD sales in the past ($1000). Otherwise however, I'm not sure it'd be an easy sell pricing according to how many parents watch on Youtube. You'll have to stress 'quality', and the need for all parents to be satisfied with top notch service & video. However some might feel 3 hours of shooting is only worth XXX amount regardless of if 10 parents watch, or 1000.

Chris Harding · February 15th, 2018, 06:33 PM

Just a thought here! Surely one needs to charge like David suggests so you are paid for your time and effort? If you were filming a promo video for a company and charged them based on your time at XXX does it really matter whether 5 prospective clients watch it or 500 .. Your costs still remain the same. Of course this does apply only to online downloads and supplying USB/DVD media has a cost involved!

We already livestream wedding ceremonies and basically charge for our time and the bride decides who will watch it by supplying a link to family and friends. We have had as little as 30 watch the video but as an example last Saturday we had families from Brazil and Holland watching so the views jumped to over 400.

Bottom line is that it doesn't change our costs to shoot the event so we don't care how many people watch it .. Our online costs are static too. It costs us a flat annual fee for unlimited streams and unlimited views so spread over multiple events the cost is tiny!

Yes, I have done quite a few " we will film your dance recital free" gigs over the years and then recouped the income from DVD sales which can be miserable or spectacular .. you only find that out after the event is done.

If you upload the recital to Vimeo and then supply the school a download link, as long as you have been paid for your shoot and edit, does it REALLY matter if parents share the link with each other???

Jane Bradley · November 5th, 2018, 10:04 AM

Although this thread is a bit dated, I am hoping that someone can provide some insight as to the legality of offering digital files/downloads/streaming. I have been wanting to offer these to my dance recital studios for years, but haven't due to the complex and outdated laws.

My understanding is that the studios are responsible for the fees associated with the music copyrights (BMI, ASCAP & SESAC). Even those are limited as it appears that they are only good for one production per year???

As videographers, we have to deal with obtaining a video sync license (to sync our video with their copyrighted music) and a master use license, and possibly more ...

Has anyone consulted with an IP attorney to know exactly what's involved with protecting ourselves and our many customers who will ultimately share our (possibly illegal) video all over the internet?

The laws are definitely lagging behind the times, and I'm worried that the huge movement away from discs to online viewing/downloading/sharing may cause some serious damage to the small businesses that rely heavily on this income for survival.

Thoughts?

Chris Harding · November 5th, 2018, 06:01 PM

Hi Jane

Did you see all the posts on the next thread as well? They might give some answers??

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/wedding-...revisited.html

Paul R Johnson · November 6th, 2018, 02:23 AM

This won't help, but I'm amazed the US rights system haven't cottoned on to digital media. Here, where we usually follow, have had a working system for small scale DVD or CD distribution for some time now - we set a limit on copy numbers and buy a licence, if we go over a certain number, we pay more up to a cap. Above the cap, it's cheaper to do a commercial release, but I've never gone over the limit. We now have similar systems for limited streaming/downloading distribution which seems to make the small scale dance type stuff really simple. Have a look at the UK PRS website for info on how ours works, and maybe you will eventually get something similar if your Government pull their finger out. For once, it's nice that we're ahead of the States in something.

Jane Bradley · November 7th, 2018, 10:02 AM

Chris - thank you for pointing me to that thread. No answers, unfortunately; but, I loved (and can relate to) David Banner's response: "If I were to try to clear all the songs they use in just one recital the conversation would go something like this: Dear dance studio, it will cost me $1,700,000 and about 6 months to 3 years to clear the music, and some of the songs cannot be cleared at all. You understand and will gladly pay this and be patient during this process right? I realize little Suzy will be have left elementary school and be in Jr High by then but that is still okay, right?" ;D

Paul - so true! My fear is what happens when the US decides to enforce these archaic laws ...

Chris Harding · November 12th, 2018, 06:12 PM

Hi Jane

I would say that people are still doing dance recitals and they are still using both DVD, USB and online distribution BUT they are simply hosting them on "non popular" servers and quietly getting on with their business. Technically even supplying a recital on a DVD would infringe copyright as far a music producers are concerned but just not making them public. In years prior to places like Vimeo and YouTube having copyright "robots" things just ran smoothly and the only odd incident was when some poor event videographer's clip went viral and attracted the attention of music publishers who saw an opportunity to cash in. Facebook now will even stop a livestream if it has music in the background that the videographer has no control over (ie: you are filming an event and some guy walks past with a "boom box" playing a copyright song) I honestly think that the overall attitude from producers of dance recitals now is keep the files private, password protected and they are highly unlikely to be sued. We would, of course be more than happy to produce legal dance recitals but the ridiculous amounts and time frames involved make it impossible !

February 1st, 2018, 01:44 PM	#16
Tracy Painter New Boot Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 20	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to reply. After a little more research it seems that Vimeo might be an option. I would use the private folder setting and send out a link to the folder. I would upload each dance. People would then have the option to download just their child's dance numbers or simply watch the streaming video on Vimeo. The key is to have the studios pay for this service up front. I will be approaching the studios with this idea this year to perhaps implement it next (2019) year. Has anyone tried this type of distribution model?

February 1st, 2018, 04:14 PM	#17
Pete Cofrancesco Inner Circle Join Date: May 2004 Location: USA Posts: 3,005	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution I’m moving in that direction. Like you said it works best if people pre-order it takes out the whole sharing link issue.It have to be done on a studio basis. It also adds a layer of complexity if some parents want the dvd. People in general likd getting something physical. There is also the added expense of Vimeo currently $7/month for the Plus account, $20/month for Pro that allows direct sales. No private links with the free basic and upload cap prevents you from uploading the entire show..

February 15th, 2018, 04:08 AM	#18
Vince Baker Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Portsmouth, UK Posts: 118	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Interesting thread, I like that this subject comes back up every year as gives a great view on how close we are getting to the demise of DVD as a delivery medium. I fully agree that the end is still nowhere in sight and that DVD still seems to be the go to media of choice for Dance recital distribution. Interestingly, figures last year for me were 4000 DVDs versus 93 Blu-rays and each event gives the option of the two. Yes, the price is higher for Blu-ray, but seems almost all just go for DVD as they are happy with that quality for the purpose of watching back a dance recital. I am not sure if that relates the same to the wedding industry, but I don't film weddings so cannot comment... I have been looking around for a few years now at an alternative, not to move to it now but to start to prepare as one day I am sure DVD will not be the way forward. Previously I agreed that the only way to achieve digital distribution would be for a single charge to the dance company rather than selling units, but as all my customers are used to the unit sale I really feel this will be a tough sell. Looking at Vimeo's solution, it is a step forward but still I believe without having a single upfront package price for the school and giving them out a single password it just is too risky as people will share the password, annoying but I feel true. One interesting alternative is https://mediazilla.com, It is for me the closest to what I am looking for at the moment. There is still some potential risk but as it requires the purchaser to create an account using their email and creating a password this feels a little bit more secure (it really isn't, but it gives the idea that sharing their email address and password login seems a bit risky, so may stop people from doing so). The actual delivery of the files looks fabulous, with an actual AppleTV app it is truly a stunning delivery method... The real thing that puts me off is the name though, anything for me with "INSERTNAMEHEREzilla" just sounds a bit like a dodgy download site, but if more companies offer a similar product I really feel there maybe something for us small companies to use as a digital delivery method... lets face it, we won't ever be appearing in iTunes in an affordable way so we need someone to make us something. Interesting to see if you have heard of mediazilla, used it, how did you find it, have you found anything else similar? Vince __________________ capture it as it happens...with motion and sound. http://www.creative-films.net

February 15th, 2018, 10:12 AM	#19
David Barnett Major Player Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Philly, PA Posts: 951	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution To answer your question about weddings. I shoot them, and rarely do couple select Blu Ray. Occasionally they ask, but then they realize their parents don't have one, or maybe even they don't, and they go with DVD. I supply a USB as well so they know they are 'future proof'. With that said, while Blu Ray is relatively common for Netflix, Redbox, Best Buy etc, I agree in that I don't think its the way forward for event delivery. As for dance recitals, I don't shoot them but I've read a bit in the threads. It seems to 2 models going forward are "PPV", like you said mediazilla, or just having the dance studio price an extra $10/$20 into their classes. Seems that would work if you are already on good grounds with a studio/instructor, and continue billing whatever you averaged in DVD sales in the past ($1000). Otherwise however, I'm not sure it'd be an easy sell pricing according to how many parents watch on Youtube. You'll have to stress 'quality', and the need for all parents to be satisfied with top notch service & video. However some might feel 3 hours of shooting is only worth XXX amount regardless of if 10 parents watch, or 1000.

February 15th, 2018, 06:33 PM	#20
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Just a thought here! Surely one needs to charge like David suggests so you are paid for your time and effort? If you were filming a promo video for a company and charged them based on your time at XXX does it really matter whether 5 prospective clients watch it or 500 .. Your costs still remain the same. Of course this does apply only to online downloads and supplying USB/DVD media has a cost involved! We already livestream wedding ceremonies and basically charge for our time and the bride decides who will watch it by supplying a link to family and friends. We have had as little as 30 watch the video but as an example last Saturday we had families from Brazil and Holland watching so the views jumped to over 400. Bottom line is that it doesn't change our costs to shoot the event so we don't care how many people watch it .. Our online costs are static too. It costs us a flat annual fee for unlimited streams and unlimited views so spread over multiple events the cost is tiny! Yes, I have done quite a few " we will film your dance recital free" gigs over the years and then recouped the income from DVD sales which can be miserable or spectacular .. you only find that out after the event is done. If you upload the recital to Vimeo and then supply the school a download link, as long as you have been paid for your shoot and edit, does it REALLY matter if parents share the link with each other???

November 5th, 2018, 10:04 AM	#21
Jane Bradley Tourist Join Date: Nov 2018 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 4	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Although this thread is a bit dated, I am hoping that someone can provide some insight as to the legality of offering digital files/downloads/streaming. I have been wanting to offer these to my dance recital studios for years, but haven't due to the complex and outdated laws. My understanding is that the studios are responsible for the fees associated with the music copyrights (BMI, ASCAP & SESAC). Even those are limited as it appears that they are only good for one production per year??? As videographers, we have to deal with obtaining a video sync license (to sync our video with their copyrighted music) and a master use license, and possibly more ... Has anyone consulted with an IP attorney to know exactly what's involved with protecting ourselves and our many customers who will ultimately share our (possibly illegal) video all over the internet? The laws are definitely lagging behind the times, and I'm worried that the huge movement away from discs to online viewing/downloading/sharing may cause some serious damage to the small businesses that rely heavily on this income for survival. Thoughts?

November 5th, 2018, 06:01 PM	#22
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Hi Jane Did you see all the posts on the next thread as well? They might give some answers?? http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/wedding-...revisited.html

November 6th, 2018, 02:23 AM	#23
Paul R Johnson Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Lowestoft - UK Posts: 4,045	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution This won't help, but I'm amazed the US rights system haven't cottoned on to digital media. Here, where we usually follow, have had a working system for small scale DVD or CD distribution for some time now - we set a limit on copy numbers and buy a licence, if we go over a certain number, we pay more up to a cap. Above the cap, it's cheaper to do a commercial release, but I've never gone over the limit. We now have similar systems for limited streaming/downloading distribution which seems to make the small scale dance type stuff really simple. Have a look at the UK PRS website for info on how ours works, and maybe you will eventually get something similar if your Government pull their finger out. For once, it's nice that we're ahead of the States in something.

November 7th, 2018, 10:02 AM	#24
Jane Bradley Tourist Join Date: Nov 2018 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 4	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Chris - thank you for pointing me to that thread. No answers, unfortunately; but, I loved (and can relate to) David Banner's response: "If I were to try to clear all the songs they use in just one recital the conversation would go something like this: Dear dance studio, it will cost me $1,700,000 and about 6 months to 3 years to clear the music, and some of the songs cannot be cleared at all. You understand and will gladly pay this and be patient during this process right? I realize little Suzy will be have left elementary school and be in Jr High by then but that is still okay, right?" ;D Paul - so true! My fear is what happens when the US decides to enforce these archaic laws ...

November 12th, 2018, 06:12 PM	#25
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Dance Recital Video Distribution Hi Jane I would say that people are still doing dance recitals and they are still using both DVD, USB and online distribution BUT they are simply hosting them on "non popular" servers and quietly getting on with their business. Technically even supplying a recital on a DVD would infringe copyright as far a music producers are concerned but just not making them public. In years prior to places like Vimeo and YouTube having copyright "robots" things just ran smoothly and the only odd incident was when some poor event videographer's clip went viral and attracted the attention of music publishers who saw an opportunity to cash in. Facebook now will even stop a livestream if it has music in the background that the videographer has no control over (ie: you are filming an event and some guy walks past with a "boom box" playing a copyright song) I honestly think that the overall attitude from producers of dance recitals now is keep the files private, password protected and they are highly unlikely to be sued. We would, of course be more than happy to produce legal dance recitals but the ridiculous amounts and time frames involved make it impossible !