What gives with these lights at DVinfo.net

Peter Rush · October 17th, 2015, 09:08 AM

From yeaterday's wedding. The DJ had 2 banks of 4 X LED lights (big circular things) and they were the only source of light in the marquee, washing saturated blue over everything, I've never seen lights so intensly coloured like this before - I could not expose properly at all unless I went really close to the subject and blasted them with my own LED light.

What I found really strange was that when my camera thought the shot was correctly exposed, to my eyes it was way over, there was no detail in the guy's shirts - I had a little time so I hooked up my smallHD monitor and took a bead on these 2 guys - they both had white shirts on so I took the gain up until I saw zebras just coming in on the brightest part of the shirt (set at 95%) and in the montor all the detail had gone from the shirts - they were simply a wash of blue, so dialling down and letting the camera think it was about 2 stops under exposed I finally saw detail coming back.

Also I tried a manual white balance on the shirt - looked aweful and then dialled through the Kelvin scale and again - I could find no WB temperature that made them look vaguely human!

Putting my light on fixed things but is far from desirable as I had to get really close - nightmare - worst reception lighting I have ever encountered!

Arthur Gannis · October 17th, 2015, 09:49 AM

Very similar experience I had with last year with them DJ's. They don't give a rat's a&# about the video and I had one that just did not limit his blue wash. I really don't get what they are intending to achieve with that particular color and the only guess I have is getting that "black light" look where everything that is white will really stand out. The one I had experienced with last year I solved the problem on the spot. I simply showed the bride a few clips of that garbage and told her that is what she will get and she immediately went up to the DJ and after a few short words all went back to normal for the rest of the evening. I really think that talking about the DJ should be mentioned or at least be part of the clauses in the contract that frees us from their lighting extravaganza being recorded. If the bride says it's OK and she prefers it that way, I would make absolutely sure I record her saying that when i bring it up at the venue.

Peter Rush · October 17th, 2015, 09:51 AM

Seriously Arthur it was like being underwater!

Noa Put · October 17th, 2015, 11:48 AM

Was that shot with a sony a7s? I recall seeing shots during the dancing part where the camera had problems displaying blue led right. My camera's have similar problems with red led but not so bad with blue.

Arthur Gannis · October 17th, 2015, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Rush

Seriously Arthur it was like being underwater!

Please don't tell me you recorded the entire evening like that. If you did and the bride complains, I would be very quick to point out the fact that she hired bunch of incompetent clowns that had no regard for her video memories that last way longer than their few hours of their underwater display. I would imagine that it must have ben nauseating to the guests. Perhaps this is what she wanted and was her idea,

Chris Harding · October 17th, 2015, 07:30 PM

Hi Pete

Those Colbalt Blue LED lights are the worst of the bunch! The only thing you can do is get in a close as you can and light couples with an on camera light ..of course the background and any wide shots will still be blue!

I have actually seen footage where the image posterises due to the lights. I haven't had any issues with red lights like Noa has ..only the blue ones.

However I have never seen it that bad! Maybe the A7S is just too sensitive in low light so it picks up every scrap of blue in the room?? Yeah, hopefully all the footage is not like that. That was one reason why I started dropping my packages from "end at midnight" to "end after the first dance" That way the DJ lights don't affect me but if you have the marquee lit like that from the start, there is not much you can do!!

Peter Rush · October 18th, 2015, 03:51 AM

I ended up filming mainly near the door where people entered as more natural light was spilling in from there, and If I did enter deeper into the marquee I got up close with my own light which helped (I'm trying to upload an example jpeg but it won't let me) - but that leads to other problems such as people telling you to sod off or turning their backs or simply looking all self aware and embrassed - The reason I switched to the A7s was to avoid using an on-camera light and here I am again - back in the same position :(

During the dancing his lights switched from blue to red to green - all awful but the blue was the worst!

I can bet that when booking a DJ 99.9% of brides never consider lighting - many in fact leave it to the venue to sort out. I have a clause in my terms regarding poor lighting and environmental conditions affecting the quality of filming, but I'm thinking now about raising it with them at the time of booking. I just need to work out how to word it without making it look like I'm apologising for not having the appropriate equipment to cope with advserse lighting conditions!

Roger Gunkel · October 18th, 2015, 05:10 AM

This form of cour wash lighting seems to be becoming fashionable with DJs at the moment, a bit like the annoying dancing green lazer blobs.

My standard contract also has a reference to lighting beyond our control, so I have a simple policy of recording it how it is. If I don't like the music I don't try to change it, and the same with the lighting, it''s their wedding not mine, I'm there to capture it. The lastt couple of weddings have been washed with LED light changing from blue to red every few minutes, apart from making sure that the colors aren't posterising, I just film what I see and use a camera light if I want to show closer things in more normal light, especially during the first dance. Even adding quite low level white light makes a big difference, so you haven't got to blind them.

Setting white balance in these colour washes is pointless as there is nothing to balance to. Even if you get the colour temperature right it will still be blue (or red) :-(

Roger

Noa Put · October 18th, 2015, 05:23 AM

Not saying these blue led look fine on my camera's, they don't but they at least retain detail, red led's otoh make my footage look out of focus, if I in post switch to black and white all detail is back again. I have had parts of the dancing where I made it black and white, just because it looked horrible in red.

These colored led's are here to stay, I have seen them appearing the past years and it's something the couple has not much to say about, it either can't be changed or they don't think about that.

I often mention it to couples when we first meet and show them how bad red light can look and if they could ask their DJ or venue if they could limit the use of red light or if they just could add just white light but when the wedding is there it's as bad as it gets, even if I ask the venue or dj for some changes nothing happen so this year I just took it as it came.

Adding a videolight doesn't help that much, unless it's a strong one and you are shooting up close but that is not something that is appreciated on the dancefloor.

Peter Rush · October 18th, 2015, 07:13 AM

Here's a shot from my CX730 with an LED-5080 light on full - still didn't make much inroad into the blue light

Noa Put · October 18th, 2015, 11:07 AM

But you can see that the cx730 deals a lot better with the blue light, at least it looks better from a distance but I might be wrong, I think it's a typical a7s problem that it can't handle these kind of blue led's well. The led lights are much more powerful then a videolight, you almost need to stand next to your subject for best effect.

Peter Rush · October 19th, 2015, 12:46 AM

This is from the CX730 set to auto exposure but minus 1/2 a stop with no additional lighting from me - just the DJ horrible lights

Noa Put · October 19th, 2015, 01:33 AM

Still I find the blue with the a7s much more harsh.

Roger Gunkel · October 19th, 2015, 04:08 AM

Pete I really think you are worrying too much about this. If you were making an independent movie about a wedding, then you would have it all scripted and lighting and sound carefully prepared. You are not though, you are making a record of their day to the best of your ability based on choices made by your client.

Unless the couple and their guests are actually complaining about the lighting, then you need to accept that they are happy with it. If the cameras can't give normal looking pictures in blue and red lighting, it's not a movie set, it's not your problem. The scenes will just look blue or red on the video, just as they did on the day- job done!

Roger

Malcolm Debono · October 19th, 2015, 06:18 AM

Never encountered lighting conditions this bad, however I did have a couple of DJs with colour-changing leds or rgbs. When this happens, I usually add an extra fresnel or two to overpower their lights and make sure to shoot from the opposite direction (so any coloured light that's left only acts as back light).

October 17th, 2015, 09:08 AM	#1
Peter Rush Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: UK/Yorkshire Posts: 2,069	What gives with these lights From yeaterday's wedding. The DJ had 2 banks of 4 X LED lights (big circular things) and they were the only source of light in the marquee, washing saturated blue over everything, I've never seen lights so intensly coloured like this before - I could not expose properly at all unless I went really close to the subject and blasted them with my own LED light. What I found really strange was that when my camera thought the shot was correctly exposed, to my eyes it was way over, there was no detail in the guy's shirts - I had a little time so I hooked up my smallHD monitor and took a bead on these 2 guys - they both had white shirts on so I took the gain up until I saw zebras just coming in on the brightest part of the shirt (set at 95%) and in the montor all the detail had gone from the shirts - they were simply a wash of blue, so dialling down and letting the camera think it was about 2 stops under exposed I finally saw detail coming back. Also I tried a manual white balance on the shirt - looked aweful and then dialled through the Kelvin scale and again - I could find no WB temperature that made them look vaguely human! Putting my light on fixed things but is far from desirable as I had to get really close - nightmare - worst reception lighting I have ever encountered! Attached Thumbnails

October 17th, 2015, 09:49 AM	#2
Arthur Gannis Major Player Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: New Jersey USA Posts: 504	Re: What gives with these lights Very similar experience I had with last year with them DJ's. They don't give a rat's a&# about the video and I had one that just did not limit his blue wash. I really don't get what they are intending to achieve with that particular color and the only guess I have is getting that "black light" look where everything that is white will really stand out. The one I had experienced with last year I solved the problem on the spot. I simply showed the bride a few clips of that garbage and told her that is what she will get and she immediately went up to the DJ and after a few short words all went back to normal for the rest of the evening. I really think that talking about the DJ should be mentioned or at least be part of the clauses in the contract that frees us from their lighting extravaganza being recorded. If the bride says it's OK and she prefers it that way, I would make absolutely sure I record her saying that when i bring it up at the venue.

October 17th, 2015, 09:51 AM	#3
Peter Rush Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: UK/Yorkshire Posts: 2,069	Re: What gives with these lights Seriously Arthur it was like being underwater!

October 17th, 2015, 11:48 AM	#4
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: What gives with these lights Was that shot with a sony a7s? I recall seeing shots during the dancing part where the camera had problems displaying blue led right. My camera's have similar problems with red led but not so bad with blue.

October 17th, 2015, 07:30 PM	#6
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: What gives with these lights Hi Pete Those Colbalt Blue LED lights are the worst of the bunch! The only thing you can do is get in a close as you can and light couples with an on camera light ..of course the background and any wide shots will still be blue! I have actually seen footage where the image posterises due to the lights. I haven't had any issues with red lights like Noa has ..only the blue ones. However I have never seen it that bad! Maybe the A7S is just too sensitive in low light so it picks up every scrap of blue in the room?? Yeah, hopefully all the footage is not like that. That was one reason why I started dropping my packages from "end at midnight" to "end after the first dance" That way the DJ lights don't affect me but if you have the marquee lit like that from the start, there is not much you can do!!

October 18th, 2015, 03:51 AM	#7
Peter Rush Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: UK/Yorkshire Posts: 2,069	Re: What gives with these lights I ended up filming mainly near the door where people entered as more natural light was spilling in from there, and If I did enter deeper into the marquee I got up close with my own light which helped (I'm trying to upload an example jpeg but it won't let me) - but that leads to other problems such as people telling you to sod off or turning their backs or simply looking all self aware and embrassed - The reason I switched to the A7s was to avoid using an on-camera light and here I am again - back in the same position :( During the dancing his lights switched from blue to red to green - all awful but the blue was the worst! I can bet that when booking a DJ 99.9% of brides never consider lighting - many in fact leave it to the venue to sort out. I have a clause in my terms regarding poor lighting and environmental conditions affecting the quality of filming, but I'm thinking now about raising it with them at the time of booking. I just need to work out how to word it without making it look like I'm apologising for not having the appropriate equipment to cope with advserse lighting conditions!

October 18th, 2015, 05:10 AM	#8
Roger Gunkel Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: LIncolnshire, UK Posts: 2,213	Re: What gives with these lights This form of cour wash lighting seems to be becoming fashionable with DJs at the moment, a bit like the annoying dancing green lazer blobs. My standard contract also has a reference to lighting beyond our control, so I have a simple policy of recording it how it is. If I don't like the music I don't try to change it, and the same with the lighting, it''s their wedding not mine, I'm there to capture it. The lastt couple of weddings have been washed with LED light changing from blue to red every few minutes, apart from making sure that the colors aren't posterising, I just film what I see and use a camera light if I want to show closer things in more normal light, especially during the first dance. Even adding quite low level white light makes a big difference, so you haven't got to blind them. Setting white balance in these colour washes is pointless as there is nothing to balance to. Even if you get the colour temperature right it will still be blue (or red) :-( Roger

October 18th, 2015, 05:23 AM	#9
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: What gives with these lights Not saying these blue led look fine on my camera's, they don't but they at least retain detail, red led's otoh make my footage look out of focus, if I in post switch to black and white all detail is back again. I have had parts of the dancing where I made it black and white, just because it looked horrible in red. These colored led's are here to stay, I have seen them appearing the past years and it's something the couple has not much to say about, it either can't be changed or they don't think about that. I often mention it to couples when we first meet and show them how bad red light can look and if they could ask their DJ or venue if they could limit the use of red light or if they just could add just white light but when the wedding is there it's as bad as it gets, even if I ask the venue or dj for some changes nothing happen so this year I just took it as it came. Adding a videolight doesn't help that much, unless it's a strong one and you are shooting up close but that is not something that is appreciated on the dancefloor.

October 18th, 2015, 07:13 AM	#10
Peter Rush Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: UK/Yorkshire Posts: 2,069	Re: What gives with these lights Here's a shot from my CX730 with an LED-5080 light on full - still didn't make much inroad into the blue light Attached Thumbnails

October 18th, 2015, 11:07 AM	#11
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: What gives with these lights But you can see that the cx730 deals a lot better with the blue light, at least it looks better from a distance but I might be wrong, I think it's a typical a7s problem that it can't handle these kind of blue led's well. The led lights are much more powerful then a videolight, you almost need to stand next to your subject for best effect.

October 19th, 2015, 12:46 AM	#12
Peter Rush Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: UK/Yorkshire Posts: 2,069	Re: What gives with these lights This is from the CX730 set to auto exposure but minus 1/2 a stop with no additional lighting from me - just the DJ horrible lights Attached Thumbnails

October 19th, 2015, 01:33 AM	#13
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: What gives with these lights Still I find the blue with the a7s much more harsh.

October 19th, 2015, 04:08 AM	#14
Roger Gunkel Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: LIncolnshire, UK Posts: 2,213	Re: What gives with these lights Pete I really think you are worrying too much about this. If you were making an independent movie about a wedding, then you would have it all scripted and lighting and sound carefully prepared. You are not though, you are making a record of their day to the best of your ability based on choices made by your client. Unless the couple and their guests are actually complaining about the lighting, then you need to accept that they are happy with it. If the cameras can't give normal looking pictures in blue and red lighting, it's not a movie set, it's not your problem. The scenes will just look blue or red on the video, just as they did on the day- job done! Roger

October 19th, 2015, 06:18 AM	#15
Malcolm Debono Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Malta Posts: 66	Re: What gives with these lights Never encountered lighting conditions this bad, however I did have a couple of DJs with colour-changing leds or rgbs. When this happens, I usually add an extra fresnel or two to overpower their lights and make sure to shoot from the opposite direction (so any coloured light that's left only acts as back light).