Editing of Speeches/Dances/In Betweens

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Dave Partington

We stopped doing trailer films for brides around 3+ years ago because they took as much time to edit as the entire rest of the DVD if we had to do that first. We made it a "paid for" option that it turns out no-one ever wanted once it was no longer free. Time is money in business so don't give stuff away for free that you can charge for, and if people don't want to pay for it then it probably wasn't worth doing. By the time we'd done the trailer we could have done the entire product and be ready to ship. They'd much rather have the 20 minute highlights than the trailer in the same amount of time.

I always charged extra for my trailers and it has been a part of a paid option list for many years, it was actually very rare for a couple not to pick and pay extra for the trailer because almost all want to share it online with their friends, it was and still is my most valuable advertising tool and has been worth every single minute of editing time I spend on them. Yes they take time to edit but they are for a large part responsible for all the extra bookings I get. It's actually the best kind of advertisement there exists, I get paid for it and my clients deal with the advertisement part on facebook or on weddingfora and it doesn't cost me a cent, how can you not like doing this :)

These short trailers are also a excellent training tool to learn how to edit.

[Steve Burkett]

Not do Trailers, unthinkable. Like Noa said, the best marketing tool. I'm not sure how long others take to edit them, but I set myself a limit of 2-5 hours for each one. No more. Sure this can compromise the final video compared to some online videos, but its all I can spare without charging more. They go down well, some more than others, depending on the couples friends list.

As for Speeches, mine are uncut. That's part of my deal, uncut Ceremony, Speeches and 1st Dance. I typically film with 4-5 cameras. If you're looking to make Speeches appear more professional, more than 1 camera will certainly make a big difference. I've edited a 2 camera setup for Speeches, one on the speaker, one on wide and the amount of times I felt frustrated I couldn't cut to a close up of the Bride and Grooms reactions during a key moment.

[Robert Benda]

David, I know what you mean about cramped spaces. If I can, I'll do my longer lenses so my cameras are further back and out of the way. If the B&G's table is amongst the guests, like a harvest table, then take advantage... one camera behind them, one in front, one more off to the side.

Of course, around here, the MOH and best man stand next to B&G, so that helps. Parents often just stand whereever they're sitting and can be harder.

----
As for not doing highlights...crazy! Just don't not offer it.. raise your rate if you have to. When I asked folks if they wanted to add it, they almost never did. When I switched to simply including it (actually 2 different highlights), they seem to love it. Went the other way when I tried to get rid of the 'documentary style' full length... even though I'm not sure anyone has actually watched one, they all seemed disappointed it wasn't included.

I found that if I do my full length edit first, it makes the highlights goes faster, since I've already gone through and found my best shots. Then I just cull sections of footage I won't use. Have 2 or 3 templates, so to speak, also helps not take too much time.

Today, from a 45 minute ceremony-only shoot, I made a highlight video in about 3 hours (not counting render time). I'm home with the little kids, so I'm not sure how much time I wasted in there. Maybe half an hour.

[Dave Partington]

Not doing trailers was a decision made as the price spiralled downwards in the local area because it was flooded with students from local media colleges offering silly prices for pocket money & experience. It's not just one or two, it's lots of them.

We (and several others) pretty much pulled out of the wedding market now because of it. I still take bookings, but only referrals and I'm pretty picky about the ones we do take.

People watched our trailers, went 'wow' we'll get a video, called for a price, the usual we've no budget left how cheap can you do it, then went off and booked the cheapest guys they could find (who didn't do trailers themselves). We were just marketing for other people!

Now, I sort of say that tongue in cheek, but there was certainly an increasing reality to it and I know 3 other local video guys who pulled out once the street price of wedding videos around here hit £500 ($750) and below.

My wife runs photobooths and while the number of weddings that are even having videos seems to be declining (not increasing), those that are having video are finding people willing to be there all day (from getting ready until midnight) for stupidly low money. We haven't seen any of the guys that were at the same price level as us for a very long time and when I bumped in to one in town a while ago he said he had only 2 bookings this year, and neither of them were local.

A couple of weeks back there were two shooters with lots of gear (Sony A7s, 2x Sennheiser + 2x Sony wireless mic kits, 3x zooms, 2x draycast LED lighting, 2x Vinten tripods, Ronin Gimbal and quite a bit of glass - I paid attention!) there from 8:30am until midnight for £350 ($560, €490). Let me say that again - three-hundred-and-fity-pounds.

So that's 31 man hours on the day (excluding travelling) + what ever editing time they have + travel expenses + cost of buying gear + insurance + music licensing + DVDs + postage etc. That's not a sustainable business. The biggest problem is they were pretty good at it too, so it's not like they were uncle bob.

So, yeah, let's raise prices further and see what happens ;)

[Peter Rush]

That's crazy Dave - they must be on less than minimum wage - why are they doing it? there are a few in my area that offer 2 shooters from prep to first dance for £500 and I thought that was barmy but the two you came across - I'm lost for words at that price - I can only think they are new at it and are doing some stupidly cheap ones as a guarantee to get the work for their portfolio, before hiking their prices to be become a more sustainable business.

[Dave Partington]

Originally Posted by Peter Rush

I can only think they are new at it and are doing some stupidly cheap ones as a guarantee to get the work for their portfolio, before hiking their prices to be become a more sustainable business.

The problem is that for everyone who shot last year and is now trying to raise prices there is at least one or more new guys this year willing to undercut you at even lower prices. It seems like it's a never ending downward spiral.

What I find mildly amusing is that as most of the local guys pull out, the wedding fairs are tempting in videographers coming from as much as 100 miles away thinking this is an affluent area and there must be lots of higher value business to be had!

[Roger Gunkel]

Being for ever cynical, I always see another side. Perhaps they have good full time jobs, have bought some good quality gear and have set up an initial price structure to kill off the opposition before going full time and hiking up their prices. Sounds like a cold and sadistic business plan to dominate the area that might well be working.

Of course it might be just students who have borrowed some gear and are gaining wedding experience.

Roger

[Dave Partington]

Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel

Being for ever cynical, I always see another side. Perhaps they have good full time jobs, have bought some good quality gear and have set up an initial price structure to kill off the opposition before going full time and hiking up their prices. Sounds like a cold and sadistic business plan to dominate the area that might well be working.

If it were the same people over and over again I would agree. But it really does seem to be here-today gone-tomorrow kinds of people.

Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel

Of course it might be just students who have borrowed some gear and are gaining wedding experience.
Roger

The local colleges actively encourage students to go out and do free / low ball pricing work to gain experience. I've lost three local commercial jobs in the last year to students doing it for free using college equipment (Red Epic for god's sake!) with the guidance of the teacher along for free. It's getting a bit old TBH.

[Roger Gunkel]

Dave, have you tried making an official written complaint to the college principle, that the policy is taking work from paid professionals and undermining local business and future employment opportunities for graduating students. You could also mention that your solicitors are looking into the legal aspects of their current policy.

Let's face it, a few years ago colleges stopped bringing in professionals like us to teach on their media courses as we didn't have teaching qualifications, so why put up with students and teachers taking work in our domain. It wouldn't be tolerated in other businesses. Can you imagine medical students taking work from medical professionals, or entertainment and leisure students setting up a travel agency??

Roger

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Dave Partington

A couple of weeks back there were two shooters with lots of gear (Sony A7s, 2x Sennheiser + 2x Sony wireless mic kits, 3x zooms, 2x draycast LED lighting, 2x Vinten tripods, Ronin Gimbal and quite a bit of glass - I paid attention!) there from 8:30am until midnight for £350 ($560, €490). Let me say that again - three-hundred-and-fity-pounds.

We are going a bit off topic but just wanted to say that at that price with 2 shooters and that amount of time spend at the wedding they most likely are not declaring any taxes and don't have a registered business, they probably want to build a portfolio so they can price accordingly later when they maybe will start a business.

[Dave Partington]

Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel

Dave, have you tried making an official written complaint to the college principle, that the policy is taking work from paid professionals and undermining local business and future employment opportunities for graduating students. You could also mention that your solicitors are looking into the legal aspects of their current policy.
Roger

I've tried talking to the staff there and to be fair, they have a job to do, which includes getting the students some experience. They say that there aren't enough local video production companies willing to take the students in (even for free) to help them with experience, so they are having to go out and get full projects for them to do.

But you know it goes much deeper than just the students, weddings and such like. Several local charities approached me over the last couple of years to do some videos for them. So, how come they pay for people to cook meals, they pay for laundry doing, they pay their nurses, they pay electricians and builders and window cleaners and all the other trades, they even pay lots of staff to raise money for them, but for photography and video they expect it for free! C'mon guys, I don't need more exposure, I can't spend exposure at the local shop, they seem to want money instead.

Sorry, off topic - rant over :)

[Roger Gunkel]

Don't want to extend this off topic too far, but just to add that the college do not need to take students into the local business arena to give them experience. That is down to teachers with little real world media experience having no imagination and not realising the impact they are having. Of course there aren't enough video companies to take them on, they are killing them all off!

I spent eight years before the rules changed, subcontracted in to the local college to run their media production course. I deliberately avoided putting students where it would conflict with local video businesses including my own. The students did numerous promotion videos for different courses within the college, the annual college fashion show with 4 camera live mixing and sales of copies to fashion students to help fund course projects.,and worked with local radio to cover events that they were promoting that would not have had video coverage. I also set up a student quick reaction team to cover local news stories and we had several shown on local news. So the whole idea that students need to poach weddings is rubbish and the college should consult with local businesses that they may be harming. In my own case, I frequently invited the best students to accompany me to weddings to gain experience, which cost me nothing and lost me no work and is far better experience than trying to do their own from scratch.

My rant over too!!!

Roger

[Dave Partington]

As if to sum it all up.....

Literally just got off the phone with someone referred to us by a previous client (who paid £1295 three years ago). This couple are getting married in 3 weeks and just decided they wanted a video. The conversation went pretty much like this:

• Hello, we're getting marring in 3 weeks and decided we should get a video. We've had a couple of quotes already, but we just watched the video you did for our friend xxxx & xxxxx and wondered how much it would be?

• OK, do you know what kind of coverage you're looking for and do you have a particular budget in mind?

• We've already over spent our budget so we really need it to be as cheap as possible. We're looking for all day really, I'm getting ready at the xxxx hotel (the venue) from about 8am and xxxx (the groom) is getting ready about 15 miles away. The [church] ceremony is at 12 [noon] and we'd like you to cover up to about 10pm or maybe later.

We've already had two quotes of £300 and £250, but we're really looking for something a bit cheaper and wondered if you were available and could beat those prices? Oh, by the way, the first quote included 10 copies of the DVD and said they'd stay until midnight, can you do that too?

• I politely declined to quote and wished them well on their day.

< sigh />

[Robert Benda]

Originally Posted by Dave Partington

We've already had two quotes of £300 and £250, but we're really looking for something a bit cheaper and wondered if you were available and could beat those prices? Oh, by the way, the first quote included 10 copies of the DVD and said they'd stay until midnight, can you do that too?

I'd answer with more, but I'm currently unconscious from having banged my head on my desk over and over and over and over and ove......

[Peter Rush]

Originally Posted by Dave Partington

• We've already over spent our budget so we really need it to be as cheap as possible. We're looking for all day really, I'm getting ready at the xxxx hotel (the venue) from about 8am and xxxx (the groom) is getting ready about 15 miles away. The [church] ceremony is at 12 [noon] and we'd like you to cover up to about 10pm or maybe later.

We've already had two quotes of £300 and £250, but we're really looking for something a bit cheaper and wondered if you were available and could beat those prices? Oh, by the way, the first quote included 10 copies of the DVD and said they'd stay until midnight, can you do that too?

• I politely declined to quote and wished them well on their day.

< sigh />

speechless