Good starter Cam for Video

[John Nantz]

Dave - You're right about the style. With regard to the mic, or mics, I WAS going to write something about the various mic alternatives but since it really hadn't been brought up I didn't want to delve into that - both from a time-factor on my part (working on an edit project as I write this, de-noise with a frame-size-change), and the fact that Phil hadn't mentioned anything about audio (that I remember) so he may already have a/some mic(s).

However, a cam with an empty mic holder would look kinda, er, shall we say, funny? Noa is trying to keep everybody fixated on the camera, bless his heart, but I've got a bit of a planner gene that causes me to look ahead. I hear this from my wife a lot "Don't worry about it!" (said in a loud voice) But I can't help it 'cuz I hate telling her "I told you so." Plus, she doesn't like hearing it.

If this wife-with-the-cam thing becomes entrenched I can just see it now: "Honey, get outa my frame!" (those photographers! mumble, mumble)

I've got this crystal ball I'm looking into as I write this and …. what do I see? It's clearing up …. yes! It's there, I see it … it's 1917 …. a brand new SUV in the driveway! Yup! Gotta have that new SUV to carry all the video stuff! Okay, so maybe it's not exactly new (spent all that money on kit), but at least newer.

Oops, can't believe I actually wrote this. Noa, can you give me a little slack??? Please?

[Noa Put]

Noa is trying to keep everybody fixated on the camera

Maybe because that was what Phil asked for in the first place? Some suggestions about a good camera that shoots well in auto while having enough manual settings to improve skills as time progresses. If he would have asked for sound solutions I would have give my opinion as well, but he didn't. Also, when you do weddings, the easiest way to get good sound is by using external recorders and sync the sound up in post. I have had camera's with build in xlr but never have used those, except when I was recording danceperformances from a fixed location. I guess, based on Phil questions, they are just starting out with video and he soon will have to dig deeper into sound as well if it is their intention to improve on that and that will need a separate thread. But there are several photogs in my country offering video with no attention to sound, except just ambient sound which the camera records and they seem to be able to sell that as well.

[Phil Stanley]

Thanks for all the input guys, been away for a few days but now time to catch up.

I became interested in video as a hobby at first, I shot a family 21st party, used stills and Video, put it together and although there were glaring errors everyone loved it. As an old time stills shooter I felt video was very exciting and challenging.

As a stills shooter who shoots weddings, I have starting taking odd clips of video to add to the Photo Films I produce. I quickly became aware that although it may be a nice addition to just stills that my clips were merely static clips of people moving. Not where I want to be.

As my wife assists me with weddings, the idea is for her to develop the video side of things. What then became apparent is that 5D's were not the easiest tools to learn your trade on. Secondly, we feel one person should be dedicated to stills and one to video.

So we have dabbled here and there with some M 4/3 gear (GX7, G6) but I feel due to lack of experience that going to a Dedicated Video camera will ease the learning curve and enable her to concentrate on the basics while she learns her trade. Initially we want well composed, well exposed, stable and in focus footage, then we can develop from there.

Reference audio, we have a zoom H1 and a lav mic which we have used a few times. So recording of vows, speeches would be done with this.

Thanks for all the advice in this thread, it's been most enlightening.

Phil

Added
My initial thoughts are: A consumer cam such as an X920 to set up as a static camera at events, weddings, with an AC90 on a monopod (if needed?) used for capturing things on the fly. Thus two relatively easy Cams to use as opposed to DSLR.

[Noa Put]

I have had the g6 and eventhough it's a great little dslr with many video oriented features it's a difficult tool to shoot weddings with, like all dslr's.

I also use handicams ( sony cx730's) to shoot my weddings and eventhough some might think people won't take you seriously or that they are for amateurs these are the only cameras I have that allow me to focus on content and be sure that when I get home my footage is in focus, has a good whitebalance, good exposure, good framing, good stabilization and at the end of the day, that's all that matters. But I don't consider these camera's good to learn to shoot video right, they are semi auto camera's and have limited manual control, you can control exposure, whitebalance etc but it's much more difficult then with a real videocamera as you often have to go through the lcd screen instead of having actual physical buttons on the camera, sometimes you also can't control all functions separately but have to choose between the one or other.

[Dave Blackhurst]

@Phil -

FWIW, an H1 is a little big to fit in some pockets, but should work - smaller digital recorders are cheap enough.

As Noa notes, small "Handycams" serve a great purpose to get "set and forget" footage, but can be fiddly to adjust - there just isn't a lot of room for controls on tiny bodies!

BUT the CX/PJ series Sonys with the magic eyeball/BOSS image stabilizers are pretty sweet for handheld - the AX33 is the current 4K iteration of the CX730 Noa mentions, I've used the PJ7xx variants myself. Others have mentioned similar Canon and Panasonic cameras, they serve many of us well. Probably not a bad "toe in the water", though if it were me, I'd go for the AX100 for the better manual controls - still fairly small and light, but a lot more camera, even if it's not 3 rings, XLRs and all that...

I've found the AX100 very easy and "natural" to run manual, and due to the potential for stutter in 4K/30p if the shutter runs too high, I like to set shutter and make manual adjustments as needed, the camera can run auto around whichever things you set manually, so it's really the best of both worlds. It's probably at the outer end of your budget, you'll need extra batteries, etc., and maybe your wife might get hands on and prefer Panny or Canon! But I think you should at least take a close look at the AX100, I find mine very easy to shoot with... I believe Noa has one as well?

[Noa Put]

Yes, I do have a ax100 also, excellent camera, my cx730"s also match very well with that camera except for detail.

Also, if you plan on buying a camera and if it has 4K, don't let people talk you out of it, you can always shoot 1080p with and use 4K when you are ready for it or when you want to give it a try, 4k has many benefits of which cropping into the frame without visual loss of detail is my favorite and the fact you can pull usable frames with sufficient resolution for photo's.

[Nigel Barker]

Originally Posted by Noa Put

You are actually insulting about any weddingvideographer out there with this statement, not everyone makes cctv like recordings of a ceremony and speeches only like you do and I don't mean that in a bad way, but it's just about the most basic and simple form of recording a event with multiple unmanned camera's. There is nothing wrong in delivering those long recordings only if your client is happy with that but there is a big difference in only supplying a few hours continuous recording of longer events or delivering a 20 minute film where you piece together all parts of a day and try to capture the emotion and mix it into a compelling piece which a couple will watch over and over again with their family and friends over the next years to come, I just don't see them do the same with a one hour ceremony or one hour speeches, that's only a memory for the couple and a reason to use the remote control to fast forward with family and friends.

To be fair Peter is in a different business from most others on this forum. He is a good photographer who is offering "cctv like recordings of a ceremony and speeches only" for free. It's a great USP when competing against other photographers & prevents the couple hiring a videographer to get in the way.

[Noa Put]

If you quote me it might be good to include Peter's comment as well which led to my reaction because now it looks like it was my only intention to denigrate his way of working. My "cctv" comment was not ment in a negative way, even I use that approach partially during ceremonies, just pointing several camera's to a fixed position and let them roll unmanned.

It was actually Peter who was very clear about how he felt about almost all weddingvidegraphers out there who try to create weddingfilms that have a more creative approach, everyone has a different approach to making wedding video but it's good to be a bit more open minded about it instead of starting to insult people just because you see it in another way.

I mean if I would say that in general there is a lot of over-engineering going on in wedding photo production and that viewed from a distance it often looks like an indulgence by closet hobbyists and has little to do with emotional content. Would you agree with that, knowing you are a photographer also?

But anyways, I"m not going to react to this anymore but if you want to discuss good starter camera's I"d be happy to give my opinion if that can help Phil.

[Phil Stanley]

The AX100 has thrown a spanner in the works, I had not considered that and I rather like it

My only observation is the AF appears slowish, I would be interested in any user experiences on how they find the AX100

As previously discussed ease of use with the ability to go manual as the wife progresses.

[Noa Put]

The autofocus on the ax100 is OKish :) Marc who is also active on this forum posted a video about it:

Sony FDR AX100 4K Video: Auto Focus Test Outdoors on Vimeo

I use the touch focus a lot on the ax100, just touch the screen to wherever you want the camera to focus on and that works quite good. I haven't used any other focus aids on this camera, only shoot in autofocus and use touch focus if I want to be sure it doesn't start to drift on it's own.

[Noa Put]

And another one for the focustracking which I haven't used yet:

Sony FDR AX100 4K Video: Focus Tracking and Auto-focus Test on Vimeo

[Nigel Barker]

Originally Posted by Noa Put

If you quote me it might be good to include Peter's comment as well which led to my reaction because now it looks like it was my only intention to denigrate his way of working. My "cctv" comment was not ment in a negative way, even I use that approach partially during ceremonies, just pointing several camera's to a fixed position and let them roll unmanned.

You misunderstand. I meant no insult to you Noa. In fact as I recall I first described Peter's videos as like CCTV some time ago & he disliked my description then. http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/wedding-...ml#post1812484 As I commented on that thread:

It's obviously better than Wobblecam from Uncle Bob but it's dispiriting that couples should find this sort of stuff acceptable for their wedding video. Why do we bother trying to make a video that is even mildly creative & entertaining if the couple are happy with a video that is just cutting between 3-4 locked off wide shots?

I don't think that there is any comparison between what Peter offers for free & anyone else on the forum who has video as main their offering. I think that Roger & Chris on occasion do some photography while doing video as a single operator but it's still video that is their main offering. In fact you might as well compare one of Peter's beautiful photographic wedding albums with an selection of screenshots from a video. It's just not the same business proposition. It's a great USP & freezes out all those creative wedding videographers who would get in the way.

BTW wedding videographers shouldn't be too upset by Peter's put-downs as if you read his posts you will realise that he doesn't think much of most other wedding photographers either:-)

[Steve Burkett]

Originally Posted by Nigel Barker

To be fair Peter is in a different business from most others on this forum. He is a good photographer who is offering "cctv like recordings of a ceremony and speeches only" for free.

I was also involved in the debate with Peter. I'd like to say that I am actually a great admirer of Peter's work; he balances Photo and Video very well and I'd say a good inspiration for other Photographers adding Video to their service. Obviously doing both carries certain limitations and I'd say this shows up more in his video work, which I personally don't have a problem with.
Where perhaps there is conflict is when Peter makes these rather strong comments that imply that any Video work or style that differs from his own, is a case of the Videographer putting creativity over the needs of their clients, when I'd say it's more the work of someone giving video 100% rather than just 50.

Forums tend to invite debate and reaction, but I do worry that whilst some here will take Peter's comments with a pinch of salt; others more new to video could take it more seriously. Such as his remark that the shutter rule is for hobbyists only. Advice I certainly would not have benefited from when starting out.

Returning to the original thread. Thanks for the links to the Sony AX100 Noa, I'm looking to buy a couple this year, so I've already downloaded the original 4K file to play with. Obviously the camera lacks XLR inputs, but unless you're working with wireless mics, I'd think it's a good option for Phil as it is for me.

[Noa Put]

Thanks for the links to the Sony AX100 Noa

The 2 videos I posted are not the only ones Mark posted, he has around 20 ax100 videos on his vimeo channel where you can download the 4K master as well to have a better idea about the IQ.

[Nigel Barker]

Originally Posted by Steve Burkett

Thanks for the links to the Sony AX100 Noa, I'm looking to buy a couple this year, so I've already downloaded the original 4K file to play with. Obviously the camera lacks XLR inputs, but unless you're working with wireless mics, I'd think it's a good option for Phil as it is for me.

You don't need XLR inputs if you are using wireless mics. The advantage of XLR balanced inputs is when using long leads & minimising interference but if the wireless receiver is on the camera then the question is moot. Actually I just Googled on some images f the AX100 & can't see a cold shoe so I am not certain how you would mount a wireless receiver in any case.