Good starter Cam for Video

Phil Stanley · February 26th, 2015, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Harding

Hi Phil

It really is refreshing to see a photographer who actually realises there is a difference between shooting video and taking stills. So many clips posted here instantly reflect the fact that the author is/was a photographer who has discovered their DSLR can, in fact shoot video!

Know the basics of film making as opposed to photography will set you up very well indeed as rules and techniques are quite different and the last thing you want to create is a slideshow of stills but actually create a motion picture.

This is an interesting site which focusses on film making as opposed to "How to shoot a wedding video"

Free Online Film School in 12 Filmmaking Tips

You will see how different the mindset is between the two mediums and is definitely worth a look!!

Chris

Thanks Chris, the videography aspect has given me a refreshing look at things after being a stills Photographer for so long, I have shot a few family/friends events and whilst everyone has loved them they aren't a patch on what I have seen on vimeo etc.
I'll check that out

Phil

Phil Stanley · February 26th, 2015, 07:53 PM

Thanks Michael

I will look into Ray Roman, I have actually watched the fusion training by vanessa and rob, there second name fails me at present.

Phil

John Nantz · February 26th, 2015, 10:13 PM

Phil - here are a couple thoughts ....

1) Ken Burns Effect: If your video camera partner is working with just one cam, what one might want to do is spice up the video with some of the stills you're taking. One way to do this and keep the action going is to use the Ken Burns Effect, utilizing the still as a clip with motion.

2) Coordinating the bokeh: If some stills are incorporated then it will be easier to grade and edit if the bokeh of the two cams are closer together. At least there should be some consideration.. My wife is the still camera shooter and I've incorporated some of her shots in my video from time to time with good effect.

3) What application do you think will be used for editing? Might check the app for file compatibility with the cam, and if not okay, then the aftermarket apps for converting file types.

Noa Put · February 27th, 2015, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Stanley

When we have shot video it is clearly lacking and is coming across more like still images with movement in as opposed the something more interesting.

Just watch as many wedding trailers as you can, eventhough they are only a few minutes long their approach can be extended or applied to a 20 minute film as well.

Phil Stanley · February 27th, 2015, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Nantz

Phil - here are a couple thoughts ....

1) Ken Burns Effect: If your video camera partner is working with just one cam, what one might want to do is spice up the video with some of the stills you're taking. One way to do this and keep the action going is to use the Ken Burns Effect, utilizing the still as a clip with motion.

2) Coordinating the bokeh: If some stills are incorporated then it will be easier to grade and edit if the bokeh of the two cams are closer together. At least there should be some consideration.. My wife is the still camera shooter and I've incorporated some of her shots in my video from time to time with good effect.

3) What application do you think will be used for editing? Might check the app for file compatibility with the cam, and if not okay, then the aftermarket apps for converting file types.

Hi John

I am using Premiere Pro for editing, that's been another learning curve in itself.

Phil Stanley · February 27th, 2015, 02:39 AM

Regarding File format.

I am a little confused as to what recording format to use.

With some Cams there seems to be options between MP4 and AVCHD.

I notice that when you import they appear differently. I use Premiere Pro.

AVCHD appears to be all in one large file, where as MP4 seems to record each clip as a separate file.
My 5D's import individual clips which I then cull, but this does not seem to be an option with AVCHD
as it is all one large file or am I missing something here.

If I end up buying a XA20 or AC90 what is the recommended format?

Thanks for all the advice I am getting.

Chris Harding · February 27th, 2015, 02:57 AM

Hi Phil

The AC-90 records in AVCHD 2.0 so every time you press start a clip is created and every time you press stop the clip is closed ...so very start stop sequence creates an MTS file

There however is one exception and that is if you are recording continuously and the file exceeds 2GB a new clip is created and this goes on and on ..let's say an example recording at 50i and 17mbps the file will split every 17 minutes so a 40 minute recording will actually create MTS0000, MTS0001 and MTS0002 ... it is important to import a split file sequence correctly otherwise you get a 12 frame audio gap between the files ...there is a lot written about how to import Panny AVCHD on DVXUser but the software that comes with the camera will have the facility to seamlessly import spilt files as one file complete.

Compared to cameras that keep writing to one file, you do have to get used to not shooting lots of 10 second sequences otherwise you end up with 100's of clips!! However the camera can handle 999 clips anyway if that's how you prefer to shoot.

If you get an AC-90 then definitely order Barry's book at the same time ..it's a bible for the AC-90!!

Chris

Phil Stanley · February 27th, 2015, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Harding

Hi Phil

The AC-90 records in AVCHD 2.0 so every time you press start a clip is created and every time you press stop the clip is closed ...so very start stop sequence creates an MTS file

There however is one exception and that is if you are recording continuously and the file exceeds 2GB a new clip is created and this goes on and on ..let's say an example recording at 50i and 17mbps the file will split every 17 minutes so a 40 minute recording will actually create MTS0000, MTS0001 and MTS0002 ... it is important to import a split file sequence correctly otherwise you get a 12 frame audio gap between the files ...there is a lot written about how to import Panny AVCHD on DVXUser but the software that comes with the camera will have the facility to seamlessly import spilt files as one file complete.

Compared to cameras that keep writing to one file, you do have to get used to not shooting lots of 10 second sequences otherwise you end up with 100's of clips!! However the camera can handle 999 clips anyway if that's how you prefer to shoot.

If you get an AC-90 then definitely order Barry's book at the same time ..it's a bible for the AC-90!!

Chris

Thanks Chris that is really useful, is there a preference regarding MP4, Mpeg or AVCHD, or should we be choosing whatever the highest MPS is.

Phil

Steve Burkett · February 27th, 2015, 04:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Stanley

Is there a preference regarding MP4, Mpeg or AVCHD, or should we be choosing whatever the highest MPS is.

Phil

Cameras tend to be varied in what file format they offer, with a mix of AVCHD, MOV and MP4 for HD footage. Personally I'm not a fan of AVCHD; it's not an easy file format to edit, especially in Premiere. Version 6 I'm using can be a pain in the ass at times and I have to use a proxy file just to play it back smoothly. Quite frustrating when I can playback 4K with no trouble at all. I'm not sure if further versions of Premiere have corrected this. Premiere 6 had updates supposedly to correct AVCHD problems, but not altogether successfully in my opinion.

MOV is better for MACs, whilst MP4 is more targeted for PC. However both systems can handle them. They're the preferred format for me to shoot in. They do tend to be larger in file size, but I prefer a higher bitrate for editing.

Dave Blackhurst · February 28th, 2015, 02:24 PM

Somehow this thread just begged for a link to THIS thread....

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/area-51/...filmmaker.html

Remember when you're shooting weddings and events you have to do almost all this stuff all on your own... film making takes a "village"...

They did forget to mention the nuances of shutter speed though...

Noa Put · March 1st, 2015, 03:02 AM

I don't think this thread is waiting for this link, eventhough funny and confronting, a link to a site that would help Phil to learn how to structure/shoot video, like he asked, would be much more helpfull.

Dave Baker · March 1st, 2015, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Stanley

If I end up buying a XA20.............

I have read, it may be true for some cameras, that AVCHD is for quality and MP4 is second rate and for getting files on a web site quickly. I have the HF G30, almost the same as the XA20 but minus the handle and infra red and I can tell you it is not true for these cameras, they use the same settings for each, so MP4 is a true alternative to AVCHD. I see no obvious visual difference in the two and have checked the settings out in Mediainfo.

MP4 is true progressive footage, has the overcrank and undercrank functions for slow and fast motion, plus a higher maximum bit rate, AVCHD is scanned progressively and recorded interlaced, but it has an LPCM audio option. I prefer the MP4 file structure, where it starts a new, dated folder every day, it helps with organisation.

Dave

John Nantz · March 1st, 2015, 01:52 PM

Phil - Here's still another thought. Since you've already taken some video, I presume with the Mark III, besides adding some stills using the Ken Burns effect one could effectively use the Mark III as a B-cam when there is time between your shots. Depending on how the cameras match, there could still be the bokeh issue though. I don't know if Premiere does multi-cam edits but in FCPX it's literally a snap.

As for the "How to be a filmmaker" video that Dave linked to, it's funny (unfortunately) because there's a heck of a lot of truth to it. Note the opening where it says "Buy a camera ….. repeat as necessary", and again later on at ~ 0:38 where the guy is taking a picture of his gear/kit. Very true.

The two main cams that have been suggested don't come with a mic except for the built-in one. It's been said that "two-thirds of good video is good audio" so the mic another acquisition item to be considered. Just as an artist doesn't paint with one brush, neither does one capture good audio with just one mic, and (adding insult to injury) good mics aren't cheap. Don't know what you've got now for a mic kit but for starters the Røde Stereo Video mic is good and work up (start collecting) from there. It'd be a good mic for the home videos.

The husband & wife team is a good one and my wife definitely sees things from a different angle than I do. Ours is a case where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Dave Blackhurst · March 1st, 2015, 04:32 PM

@ Noa - Unfortunately I forgot to use the sarcasm font yet again, but given the thread drift, that link seemed to be "right" to lighten the mood!

The OP was asking whether to consider a video camera addition to his cameras, to better add video to his "stills" service package - something a number of us here do, with "two man" (or husband and wife) teams, so it's a viable thing to do. Then the question is "which one", again something many of us here can offer suggestions about. Where the drift off into shutter speeds and film making styles came from, not really sure...

I think we've already given the considerations - having matching "looks" and color handling to OP's existing cameras is a concern, and there are a number of cameras that should meet the needs, both for function and for the budget.

Video cameras do tend to be a little to a lot better for shooting video than a still camera with video functions. and vary between models and brands One really should put "hands on" before a final purchase decision, and it's not a bad idea to go find the manual online for any camera being considered, so when it's "hands on" you aren't fumbling around learning where things are, but rather testing to see if the camera "feels" comfortable.

One other thought, since this is a "new" addition to an existing venture, probably better not to overspend on any purchase, no matter how tempting, just in case it doesn't work out... (try as I may, my wife just isn't interested in shooting video, for instance, but her interests and skills for stills are excellent).

Dave Blackhurst · March 1st, 2015, 04:54 PM

@ John -

Yes, audio is a "new" consideration for adding video into OP's business, but I think he would primarily need to consider how to capture vows and speeches, which are better suited to small close mic'ing solutions of one sort or another (wireless lav and digital pocket recorder with lav are the two popular "solutions"), since it's only a matter of time before "house audio" bites one in the backside...

Depending on his ultimate "style", ambient audio may not even be in the "mix"? I've got good shotguns, but the quality of in camera mics on my current cameras is quite adequate (I've had cams where it was unusable). I'd sooner buy a good digital recorder/lav combo if I were building a "wedding kit". Events, that would be an entirely different animal!

February 26th, 2015, 07:53 PM	#32
Phil Stanley Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: London Posts: 148	Re: Good starter Cam for Video Thanks Michael I will look into Ray Roman, I have actually watched the fusion training by vanessa and rob, there second name fails me at present. Phil

February 26th, 2015, 10:13 PM	#33
John Nantz Trustee Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 1,254	Re: Good starter Cam for Video Phil - here are a couple thoughts .... 1) Ken Burns Effect: If your video camera partner is working with just one cam, what one might want to do is spice up the video with some of the stills you're taking. One way to do this and keep the action going is to use the Ken Burns Effect, utilizing the still as a clip with motion. 2) Coordinating the bokeh: If some stills are incorporated then it will be easier to grade and edit if the bokeh of the two cams are closer together. At least there should be some consideration.. My wife is the still camera shooter and I've incorporated some of her shots in my video from time to time with good effect. 3) What application do you think will be used for editing? Might check the app for file compatibility with the cam, and if not okay, then the aftermarket apps for converting file types.

February 27th, 2015, 02:39 AM	#36
Phil Stanley Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: London Posts: 148	Re: Good starter Cam for Video Regarding File format. I am a little confused as to what recording format to use. With some Cams there seems to be options between MP4 and AVCHD. I notice that when you import they appear differently. I use Premiere Pro. AVCHD appears to be all in one large file, where as MP4 seems to record each clip as a separate file. My 5D's import individual clips which I then cull, but this does not seem to be an option with AVCHD as it is all one large file or am I missing something here. If I end up buying a XA20 or AC90 what is the recommended format? Thanks for all the advice I am getting.

February 27th, 2015, 02:57 AM	#37
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Good starter Cam for Video Hi Phil The AC-90 records in AVCHD 2.0 so every time you press start a clip is created and every time you press stop the clip is closed ...so very start stop sequence creates an MTS file There however is one exception and that is if you are recording continuously and the file exceeds 2GB a new clip is created and this goes on and on ..let's say an example recording at 50i and 17mbps the file will split every 17 minutes so a 40 minute recording will actually create MTS0000, MTS0001 and MTS0002 ... it is important to import a split file sequence correctly otherwise you get a 12 frame audio gap between the files ...there is a lot written about how to import Panny AVCHD on DVXUser but the software that comes with the camera will have the facility to seamlessly import spilt files as one file complete. Compared to cameras that keep writing to one file, you do have to get used to not shooting lots of 10 second sequences otherwise you end up with 100's of clips!! However the camera can handle 999 clips anyway if that's how you prefer to shoot. If you get an AC-90 then definitely order Barry's book at the same time ..it's a bible for the AC-90!! Chris

February 28th, 2015, 02:24 PM	#40
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Good starter Cam for Video Somehow this thread just begged for a link to THIS thread.... http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/area-51/...filmmaker.html Remember when you're shooting weddings and events you have to do almost all this stuff all on your own... film making takes a "village"... They did forget to mention the nuances of shutter speed though...

March 1st, 2015, 03:02 AM	#41
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: Good starter Cam for Video I don't think this thread is waiting for this link, eventhough funny and confronting, a link to a site that would help Phil to learn how to structure/shoot video, like he asked, would be much more helpfull.

March 1st, 2015, 01:52 PM	#43
John Nantz Trustee Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 1,254	Re: Good starter Cam for Video Phil - Here's still another thought. Since you've already taken some video, I presume with the Mark III, besides adding some stills using the Ken Burns effect one could effectively use the Mark III as a B-cam when there is time between your shots. Depending on how the cameras match, there could still be the bokeh issue though. I don't know if Premiere does multi-cam edits but in FCPX it's literally a snap. As for the "How to be a filmmaker" video that Dave linked to, it's funny (unfortunately) because there's a heck of a lot of truth to it. Note the opening where it says "Buy a camera ….. repeat as necessary", and again later on at ~ 0:38 where the guy is taking a picture of his gear/kit. Very true. The two main cams that have been suggested don't come with a mic except for the built-in one. It's been said that "two-thirds of good video is good audio" so the mic another acquisition item to be considered. Just as an artist doesn't paint with one brush, neither does one capture good audio with just one mic, and (adding insult to injury) good mics aren't cheap. Don't know what you've got now for a mic kit but for starters the Røde Stereo Video mic is good and work up (start collecting) from there. It'd be a good mic for the home videos. The husband & wife team is a good one and my wife definitely sees things from a different angle than I do. Ours is a case where the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

March 1st, 2015, 04:32 PM	#44
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Good starter Cam for Video @ Noa - Unfortunately I forgot to use the sarcasm font yet again, but given the thread drift, that link seemed to be "right" to lighten the mood! The OP was asking whether to consider a video camera addition to his cameras, to better add video to his "stills" service package - something a number of us here do, with "two man" (or husband and wife) teams, so it's a viable thing to do. Then the question is "which one", again something many of us here can offer suggestions about. Where the drift off into shutter speeds and film making styles came from, not really sure... I think we've already given the considerations - having matching "looks" and color handling to OP's existing cameras is a concern, and there are a number of cameras that should meet the needs, both for function and for the budget. Video cameras do tend to be a little to a lot better for shooting video than a still camera with video functions. and vary between models and brands One really should put "hands on" before a final purchase decision, and it's not a bad idea to go find the manual online for any camera being considered, so when it's "hands on" you aren't fumbling around learning where things are, but rather testing to see if the camera "feels" comfortable. One other thought, since this is a "new" addition to an existing venture, probably better not to overspend on any purchase, no matter how tempting, just in case it doesn't work out... (try as I may, my wife just isn't interested in shooting video, for instance, but her interests and skills for stills are excellent).

March 1st, 2015, 04:54 PM	#45
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Good starter Cam for Video @ John - Yes, audio is a "new" consideration for adding video into OP's business, but I think he would primarily need to consider how to capture vows and speeches, which are better suited to small close mic'ing solutions of one sort or another (wireless lav and digital pocket recorder with lav are the two popular "solutions"), since it's only a matter of time before "house audio" bites one in the backside... Depending on his ultimate "style", ambient audio may not even be in the "mix"? I've got good shotguns, but the quality of in camera mics on my current cameras is quite adequate (I've had cams where it was unusable). I'd sooner buy a good digital recorder/lav combo if I were building a "wedding kit". Events, that would be an entirely different animal!