A turning point in video/photo packages?

[Chris Harding]

Good points Roger

We must have close to 20 times the photogs in our area compared to videographers. Young women especially will finish school, take a 6 month photo course at the local TAFE and zappo they are now fully fledged wedding photographers and since Daddy has already bought them a couple of DSLR's they are ready for business and literally flood the market! Ok so we have a lot but not that many have much experience either so they are all fighting for business.

Despite the surplus of photogs, we still get most of our enquiries for dual packages and I honestly think that the convenience side does play a big part in it ... We have a competitor here who is even more popular ...why? he is a photog and DJ and his wife is a videographer so they can offer a 3-in-1 package making bridal choices even easier.

As long as ones work is up to scratch (it doesn't have to be stunningly creative) brides I think will gravitate towards dual (or even triple) packages for pure convenience sake

Chris

[Roger Gunkel]

Hi Chris, yes quality is important but convenience and having one company that they feel comfortable is also a big selling point.

We had another wedding show today, much smaller than the last one, but again we were overwhelmed all day with enquiries. Everyone loved the dual package and we reserved two dates at the show and took a booking from someone who insisted they wanted to book us inspite of us not wanting to take bookings at shows.

Notably, there was a very showy upmarket photographer there, who one of my reserved video couples had decided to book. They had a meeting with me this week and I was there for over an hour. They also had a meeting with the photographer. Us and the photographer were both at the wedding show today and we were delighted to see them and talked about their dogs and the family. They then said that the photographer had been quite blunt and rude to them once he felt that he had their business, and they had begun to feel quite uncomfortable with him. The result was that they had decided to book our dual package as they felt that we were genuinely interested in them and their requirements, whereas they felt the other guy was only interested in the money. That says to me that how you relate to your clients is equally as important as the product you are selling..

There were only 25 exhibitors at the show, of which 5 were photographers and us as the only video company.

Roger

[Steve Burkett]

The problem for me and I'm sure for many solo Videographers and Photographers, is that to add a dual package, it is preferable to have another person, even if occasionally to assist on larger Weddings. Now if I happened to know a like minded individual who was willing to join me, which I don't, how do I secure this extra person. The best and most reliable means is to be married to such a person, but that's kind of hard to manufacture. Do I put an add on Craigslists, 'Single Male Videographer seeks female Photographer for marriage and life long Business Partnership'; no, perhaps not.
Hiring freelances means that work isn't yours and therefore not really marketable as a joint Business, not to mention you couldn't guarantee a particular freelancer. Leaving me with only one option and that is to hire an up and coming Photographer. The only issue with that is if they suddenly decided to leave and you've got to inform all your upcoming clients that they'll be getting a different Photographer for their Wedding. I can't see many taking that kindly.

So the answer for me and I'm sure many others is to keep going it alone and try to juggle both. Now Roger aside, how many out there can really pull that off without a drop in quality. Just because Roger can do this, doesn't translate everyone can. Frankly, there are plenty of Photographers and Videographers who've yet to master their one Profession; does the Wedding Industry need them to start juggling another, no.

Whilst there are couples out there looking for the convenience of hiring both, I still predict there to be many that will value the advantages of hiring 2 separate companies. The only thorn is that many joint Businesses do both at ridiculously low prices. It's not hard to see how they get Business and it's tough to compete for cash strapped Couples. I offer a Marryoke add on, which is a 30% increase on my Wedding Video Price, so if I did offer Photography, it should given the extra work involved be at least an increase of 50%, only less if I was supplying Photos unedited. Anything lower is a discount in all but name. When I see Photographers adding Video to the tune of £300, just what are they offering to justify such a low price. With photos I can at least have a no edit option, but that can't be the case here. Yes it's extra income, yes it's a good marketing ploy and yes it must give them a creative buzz on the day, but it's also potentially a lot of hours in the editing suite. I wonder if they'll still charge £300 after their 50th Wedding Video or whether they'll still offer it all.

I've got a Wedding fayre later this month, so I'll be checking out the Photographers work too. I'm intrigued to know just what sort of video they're really coming up with. That is if they're offering video at all.

[Chris Harding]

Very very true Steve

The only really practical method is use your wife!! Now your ad was just a tiny bit wrong. It should read as follows :

"Good looking virile videographer seeks a female with a good camera and lot's of talent for marriage and business partnership. Photo of yourself isn't necessary but a photo and specs on the camera is essential as well as an extensive portfolio of your work"

Might as well go for broke and get a REALLY talented lass.

Chris

[Roger Gunkel]

Love the ad idea Steve :-0. You are right of course that the most reliable partner is one you are married to and I also fully accept that few videographers or photographers will want to take on the challenge of offering a dual solo package.

I think that given the skill to shoot good stills or video separately is not just a matter of taking both lots of equipment along, it is about rethinking your whole set up and working methods. It is not difficult if you have both skills but you need to practice and be very confident before taking on a dual assignment, and as I said, certainly not for everyone.

I do think though that 4k and 8k is going to be the final turning point, where any of the thousands of video frames may be used as a still while maintaining high quality. That will remove the need for separate cameras for a dual package and will simply mean that the person taking the video will also organise the poses and groups at the appropriate parts of the day. I don't see that being a particularly big step for those of us already taking video, but maybe more so for photographers wanting to add the skills of videography to their repertoire. Framing, posing and visual flow, being the three main skills that will need to be incorporated with a combined package, with an understanding of the technical aspects of lighting, aperture, exposure etc being common to both and probably a basic understanding of sound recording.

Roger

[Chris Harding]

A few years ago I tried the route of getting an assistant for both video and photography so we could share duties. I have no idea what they teach students at media courses but my last lady had a 5 year Uni course PLUS a few years as a media teacher so technically she was ideal. I sent her off to do bridal prep on video plus take a few simple groups of the guys on stills!!

Absolutely hopeless!! Even the most basic videographer would know NOT to film guys in a dark room standing against a huge sun filled picture window. The stills were just as morbid ..she stood them against a wall and shot with direct flash. After that I gave up and coaxed my wife into doing weddings ..after a while she really started to enjoy them (better than sitting alone at home while hubby is at a wedding) and her idea of an open photobooth with props is a hit with the brides too.

So Steve, you either shoot alone OR we find you a wife ..that's about the size of it. I'm sure Roger would be glad to shoot your wedding too!!

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel

I do think though that 4k and 8k is going to be the final turning point, where any of the thousands of video frames may be used as a still while maintaining high quality.

It will be a lot easier to pull high quality frames but I"m sure this will never be of any threat to a higher end photographer, video and photo require a totally different approach. You could just shoot video, extract stills from that and sell it as a separate photo package but you will be serving a group that doesn't have so high expectations, that have a small budget but that are happy with some simple photo's which is fine if that is what you are aiming for. Photography is more then resolution only.

[Steve Burkett]

Originally Posted by Chris Harding

"Good looking virile videographer seeks a female with a good camera and lot's of talent for marriage and business partnership. Photo of yourself isn't necessary but a photo and specs on the camera is essential as well as an extensive portfolio of your work"

Might as well go for broke and get a REALLY talented lass.

Chris

It's so tempting to run that ad; it's such a totally bonkers idea that it could actually work. You hear all sorts of weird stories at Weddings at how people meet.

Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel

I think that given the skill to shoot good stills or video separately is not just a matter of taking both lots of equipment along, it is about rethinking your whole set up and working methods. It is not difficult if you have both skills but you need to practice and be very confident before taking on a dual assignment, and as I said, certainly not for everyone.

Roger

You also have to be emotionally invested in both professions and not just offer it to compete. I'm just not feeling the love for Photography as I do Videography. I did Photo/Video for a Corporate job yesterday and I'm not as happy when I'm shooting Photos as I am doing Video. Odd as I was a passionate Photographer 12 years ago.

Originally Posted by Chris Harding

So Steve, you either shoot alone OR we find you a wife ..that's about the size of it. I'm sure Roger would be glad to shoot your wedding too!!

I'll keep you posted. :)

[Chris Harding]

Hey Steve

The ad is an age old joke I adapted about a farmer who advertised for a wife with a tractor and said, please send picture of the tractor. Then again who knows? You might end up with a stunning blonde, and with all the gear and the talent. Maybe there IS someone out there thinking "I wish I could meet a nice video guy" .... Let's face it, shooting weddings is very anti-social for girlfriends or wives as they get stuck at home every weekend BUT find an avid photog with good looks and you are made!!

Funny I was a photog too for nearly 15 years (all film and 6x7 format mainly) and when video became practical I moved to the medium as I always had a burning desire to make movies...it's so much more than taking boring stills!!! To have a photog that I take with me is the answer.

Honestly, although I have done both I never liked it as it's simply too much trying to switch mindsets and do both!

OK, run the ad and let us know what happens ?? Seriously, If I was single and put an ad on a dating site I would certainly mention the photo side, working together etc etc rather than sitting at home being the equivalent of a golf widow. You never know!

[Roger Gunkel]

Steve - I suppose because I only offered the add on photography package comparatively recently, I can get emotionally involved in the stills aswell as it is something I love exploring. I still really enjoy the video, but after over 2000 weddings, it's great to add the excitement of photography with the closer interaction with those at the wedding.

Noa- I certainly wouldn't expect a videographer moving into 4k or 8k to just continue to work with his video head on and just lift stills from the video as a duel package. But there is absolutely no reason why the romantic poses that I would normally expect to take with a still camera, couldn't be taken by a 4k/8k video camera, without the faff of separate cameras and lenses. You would also be able to switch instantly from a nice pose to an establishing shot, or a pull back from a closeup to show more of the scene, movement etc. It needs a different approach as I said earlier, but certainly achievable.

I have lost count of the number of stills I have been asked to lift from HD video when the photographer failed to get a shot and I had not been thinking stills at all. There are a lot of crossovers in framing and shooting stills and video and it wouldn't take a lot more to be more specific about the stills to lift, providing you are competent at knowing how to pose people and frame for stills.

roger

[Leon Bailey]

Originally Posted by Chris Harding

Hi Leon

The only reason we do dual packages is that brides always book the photog first so we get looked at earlier which means there is a better chance of being booked and secondly we always know we have our own photog at the venue not some arrogant guy who thinks the entire wedding shoot is about him!!

Chris

You know what! I said to myself last week that I will start pushing photography and videography packages more because what you just said is true. Just to think, two weeks ago, I was debating dropping photography all together.

Originally Posted by Noa Put

I have yet to see a trailer from someone that does both by themselves that captures the raw emotion from throughout the day in a compelling way, that's just not possible when you need to do both simultaneously, there often will be moments where you will be forced to choose to either take a picture or shoot video from a unexpected moment that won't repeat itself and which can make the difference in getting that killer photo or videorecording. It always will be a compromise, ofcourse it is possible but it will never be of the same standard compared to someone that dedicated his time to one thing only. I think this much we should be able to agree upon.

I haven't looked that far for those that do both solo, but I would lean towards your opinion on the matter.

[Chris Harding]

Hi Leon

I would say that pretty much 90% of my enquiries are for the dual package now so brides do like the idea. I think I did a grand total of 2 dual shoots on my own and they are VERY hard to do. It's tough having a video camera on a tripod, one on your shoulder and 2 DSLR's around your waste during the ceremony and still try to get video cutaways and stills that are half decent.. Even if you just have an assistant at the ceremony it helps as you cannot do both and capture the emotion. The photoshoot is easy to do solo as I do a stedicam shoot on video and all the rest is photography but with my wife, she takes the rest of the bridal party to one side and does shots with them while I'm doing the video shoot. I certainly wouldn't advise anyone to try to do both on their own!!

Chris

[Roger Gunkel]

I certainly also wouldn't advise anyone to take on video and photos solo unless they are very competent at both disciplines and are geared up equipment wise to work solo. It is not a simply a matter of taking both lots of equipment with you.

As regards Noa's comment about it not being possible for anyone to offer a joint package to the standard of someone who is totally dedicated to one discipline. I would have to completely disagree as I have seen work from dedicated videographers and photographers that I would be embarrassed to put my name to. There are certainly those in both disciplines whose work I would not try to compete with however I worked, but that is as much about not liking their style and methodology as anything. What I do, I do well and clients are very happy with my work after comparing with other offerings. I also don't do trailers and would never post a video on the forum as I am not interested in what other professionals think of my work, or in having my ego massaged, they don't pay my bills. only clients and potential clients do that

Trying to compare one style with another is a pointless excercise as the only thing that matters is what your client wants, whether you can provide it and whether they can afford it. Opinions on this forum are interesting and sometimes entertaining, but in the real world the only thing that matters is whether the work is coming in, and after 30 years of weddings I'm very happy still :-)

Roger

[Noa Put]

As regards Noa's comment about it not being possible for anyone to offer a joint package to the standard of someone who is totally dedicated to one discipline. I would have to completely disagree as I have seen work from dedicated videographers and photographers that I would be embarrassed to put my name to.

Those I would like to see, do you have a link? (or even pm them to me if you don't want those other videographers site appear publicly) I also think that showing your work is not about having your ego massaged, I mean how else do you present your work to your clients if you don't share anything?

[Noa Put]

Sorry, ignore my previous message as I misunderstood the first part, it is this part I am referring to:

Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel

There are certainly those in both disciplines whose work I would not try to compete with

So if that person would be the hired photographer at a wedding where you would be as well as videographer, would that mean that if he would send you home and take on your job as well on his own, he still would be doing a better job then you, how can one person doing 2 disciplines at the same time be any good or even better then someone who is dedicated to one job only?