How I hate DVDs....

Chris Harding · December 15th, 2014, 12:33 AM

Hey Andrew

One thing that most producers don't also consider is that the bride doesn't pixel peep like we do. She more than likely has no preference to a specific format .. all she wants is to make sure she looks pretty as well as her bridesmaids. Give her SD reson a DVD and she is perfectly content.. however she has other priorities that we don't have ..if the pink bridesmaid's dresses look orange then she will pick that up very quickly. Seriously, I show brides demo footage and their only comment is "Wow it looks so clear" ... Give her nice colour saturation and clean in focus shots and she is happy ... most brides have no idea what HD is anyway (I did a survey a while back and some actually said "I cannot tell the difference, besides I'm watching what's going on at my wedding")

Good content and easy playability for me make a bride happy ..nothing else!

Chris

Andrew Smith · December 15th, 2014, 12:56 AM

So true. Plus having the ability to speak 'woman' when communicating with them.

Andrew

Noa Put · December 15th, 2014, 01:47 AM

I have tried something new, I was revising my prices and untill now I always included 3 dvd's and had blu-ray as a paying option. but for this year I only had one client asking for a blu-ray and I think last year no-one asked. This means I have a bunch of unused blu-ray discs sitting in my office and like it looks I can use them as coaster soon.

So I decided to turn things around and while doing so make some extra cash, I now have 3 Blu-ray's included standard in my package and have the dvd as a paying option, I find it important enough to continue to give my clients a choice but maybe it's better to give them the best quality from the start and only if they want them, provide them with extra dvd's.

I expect almost every client to ask for a dvd so that's some small extra income that I otherwise didn't have, since no-one took the blu-ray option.

See how that goes.

James Manford · December 15th, 2014, 01:56 AM

I think the problem with that is Noa you may find them thinking "well every other videographer offers DVDs as standard ..."

I could be wrong.

Noa Put · December 15th, 2014, 02:20 AM

I try to make clear on my website that dvd is of a much lower quality and that I only want to deliver the best for them, and only for those that can't say goodbye to their dvd players that I will continue to deliver dvd's for them. I have seen the cheapest BR player for 50 euro and the cheapest dvd player for 25 euro so they are finally getting very close in cost. It actually costs more to fill up a gastank from your car then what a BR player costs so maybe it's time to convince people it's time to upgrade without forcing them into a certain format?

Robert Benda · December 15th, 2014, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put

So I decided to turn things around and while doing so make some extra cash, I now have 3 Blu-ray's included standard in my package and have the dvd as a paying option, I find it important enough to continue to give my clients a choice but maybe it's better to give them the best quality from the start and only if they want them, provide them with extra dvd's..

This site needs a "like" button for posts like this. Hopefully you'll successfully turn this negative into a positive, one way or the other. Either you make more money, or people will suddenly discover they own a blu-ray player.

I might provide one of each: DVD, blu-ray, and USB

Steve Burkett · December 15th, 2014, 12:11 PM

I can imagine Wedding Videographers arguing when DVD first came out about how clients wouldn't notice the difference in quality, everyone has a Video Cassette Player, only nerds have invested in DVD players. Video cassettes is still the best format, will continue to be etc etc. How many Wedding Videos sit on shelves or in drawers unwatched because the couple have long since ditched their Video Cassette player.
I've been asked to convert a few, some I'm generous and say I'll do just for the cost of a disk and I still never hear back. It gets forgotten. Until then the couple can't on the spur of the moment just put on their Wedding Video. I guess there's a risk in any format, but I still think a digital copy is the best future proof option out there at the moment.

D.R. Gates · December 15th, 2014, 02:22 PM

My package includes 4 DVDs & 2 Blu-rays. I don't nickel and dime my clients, especially when my cost per disc is so cheap.

Noa Put · December 15th, 2014, 02:30 PM

I use tmpgenc autoringworks to make my dvd and blu-rays and maybe I overlooked but untill now I have to build each separately which then takes twice the time, if I only could build a menu and then have a choice to either export blu-ray or dvd then it would only be a matter of pressing a button and wait.

About "nickel and dime" your clients, I have started watching a course from Ray Roman, you should see his option list. at 9,5k starting price I'd expect all to be included but that's just the bare minimum, he charges 800 dollar extra if you want blu-ray. :)

Roger Gunkel · December 15th, 2014, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Burkett

I guess there's a risk in any format, but I still think a digital copy is the best future proof option out there at the moment.

I thought dvd was digital! So instead do we store digitally in 1920x1080, if we are future proofing what about 4k, 8k, 16k? It's all here today gone tomorrow, but why are we worrying about what happens in 10 or 20 years time? I have masters of weddings going back to the early 1980s and can still copy them to whatever format I want if needed because I keep an old VHS player.

So many on the forum seem obsessed with archiving and future proofing, but all we are doing is supplying a product to a client to view their wedding. If they want to view their wedding in 20 years time, then it is up to them to do what ever is neccessary in the future, not us. There is no way of predicting what future requirements may be, and people are just as unlikely to have Bluray players in 10 years time as DVD players. It has never been mainstream in the way that VHS and DVD have been, and is unlikely to grow in popularity with the public turning to downloading and streaming.

Roger

Steve Burkett · December 15th, 2014, 04:40 PM

Apologies for not being too precise in my language. I use the term digital copies to refer to a copy that is purely for a computer and not a physical copy, and aside that I'm already working and delivery with 4K, I think it's at least important, given we are being paid, to store the best possible quality that was used in recording the Wedding. Failing that, as in some of my early Weddings, at the very least edited in. I have computer files of all my Wedding videos at the highest copy they were edited in. I'm sure my clients can't expect me to film in a format that has yet to be developed, but if they ask for HD or in 1 case 4K, even if they ask for a DVD copy, some because they're ignorant of it's limitation, I see no excuse to limit my digital files to such an inferior format when a better quality version exists.

That said I agree with your views on Bluray and in my earlier post suggested that PC based copies although still not 100% future proof, are at the very least the best option if anyone considers that important to their clients; I'm sure some do not. As many here deride certain deliveries like Shortform or Highlights Videos as they feel it's not what the Bride will want to see in the future, I can only assume that such people who do feel that way will also acknowledge the importance that their videos be viewable say in 10 or 20 years time, otherwise why all the fuss over style of work, if pleasing the couple now is our only consideration.

Dave Partington · December 15th, 2014, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Gunkel

So many on the forum seem obsessed with archiving and future proofing, but all we are doing is supplying a product to a client to view their wedding. If they want to view their wedding in 20 years time, then it is up to them to do what ever is neccessary in the future, not us. There is no way of predicting what future requirements may be, and people are just as unlikely to have Bluray players in 10 years time as DVD players. It has never been mainstream in the way that VHS and DVD have been, and is unlikely to grow in popularity with the public turning to downloading and streaming.

Roger

You're absolutely right, of course, but my conscience plays havoc with me when I think about people not being able to play their DVD on their 25th wedding anniversary, either because they no longer have a device capable of playing DVDs or perhaps the discs don't work! Having said that, VHS degradation was never it's strong point either so stuff I did way back when won't exactly be 'like new' today.

To look at it another way, when today's brides reach their 25th anniversary my three score years and ten will be up and will I actually be bothered?

At least digital storage has the potential to be transferred around as technology migrates, OTOH so many people are so bad at doing this that I think many will lose their digital copes sooner rather than later.

Maybe there's a business for archival / retrieving people's wedding videos in 25 years time... though of course no one will want to pay for that in advance.

D.R. Gates · December 15th, 2014, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put

About "nickel and dime" your clients, I have started watching a course from Ray Roman, you should see his option list. at 9,5k starting price I'd expect all to be included but that's just the bare minimum, he charges 800 dollar extra if you want blu-ray

Well, I love Ray's work, but somehow we all managed to get run a business just fine before he arrived on the scene. For me, giving clients a decent package at a fair price has always worked well for me.

Dave Partington · December 15th, 2014, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put

About "nickel and dime" your clients, I have started watching a course from Ray Roman, you should see his option list. at 9,5k starting price I'd expect all to be included but that's just the bare minimum, he charges 800 dollar extra if you want blu-ray. :)

Something else I figured out long ago. The US is a totally different market to Europe. While the likes of Ray Roman can pick up clients one week in NY than the next in LA, they are going at a market of 250M people.

How many people in Europe can pick up a client in Paris one month, Madrid the next, the London, Berlin, Rome and so on.

Ray can find the rich jet set scattered across an entire continent. We're rarely as lucky.

Roger Gunkel · December 15th, 2014, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Burkett

Apologies for not being too precise in my language. I use the term digital copies to refer to a copy that is purely for a computer and not a physical copy, and aside that I'm already working and delivery with 4K, I think it's at least important, given we are being paid, to store the best possible quality that was used in recording the Wedding. Failing that, as in some of my early Weddings, at the very least edited in. I have computer files of all my Wedding videos at the highest copy they were edited in. I'm sure my clients can't expect me to film in a format that has yet to be developed, but if they ask for HD or in 1 case 4K, even if they ask for a DVD copy, some because they're ignorant of it's limitation, I see no excuse to limit my digital files to such an inferior format when a better quality version exists.
That said I agree with your views on Bluray and in my earlier post suggested that PC based copies although still not 100% future proof, are at the very least the best option if anyone considers that important to their clients; I'm sure some do not. As many here deride certain deliveries like Shortform or Highlights Videos as they feel it's not what the Bride will want to see in the future, I can only assume that such people who do feel that way will also acknowledge the importance that their videos be viewable say in 10 or 20 years time, otherwise why all the fuss over style of work, if pleasing the couple now is our only consideration.

No need for apologies Steve as I was being ironic rather than pedantic, so perhaps apologies from me:-) My point was that dvd is of course digital, but digital storage can be in many different types, so storing an HD or 4k file now, doesn't mean that it will be easily readable in 20 years time.

Unless we continuously upgrade all our stored masters to new formats as they come along, there is no guarantee that they will be easily readable in 20 or even 10 years. There is also no way of knowing how long current storage such as hard drives, usb drives etc, will actually save the digital information without deterioration or curruption. I do agree with storing in a resolution that we shoot in, but that is only current for a short time. I also agree that clients may well want to view their wedding video on their 25th wedding anniversary, but that is something that they need to take care of. I may want to drive my brand new car in 25 years time if I'm not dead, but It is up to me to keep it going not the manufacturer. What about all those people with collections of vinyl records, do they expect the manufacturers to convert them to a modern format? Of course not, they either have to maintain a record turntable, or repurchase them from the copyright holder as a new digitally reprocessed disc.

Perhaps the beauty of a historical record of your wedding on VHS, DVD or USB in the future, will be to view it as it was originally intended as part of the history.

Roger

December 15th, 2014, 12:33 AM	#46
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: How I hate DVDs.... Hey Andrew One thing that most producers don't also consider is that the bride doesn't pixel peep like we do. She more than likely has no preference to a specific format .. all she wants is to make sure she looks pretty as well as her bridesmaids. Give her SD reson a DVD and she is perfectly content.. however she has other priorities that we don't have ..if the pink bridesmaid's dresses look orange then she will pick that up very quickly. Seriously, I show brides demo footage and their only comment is "Wow it looks so clear" ... Give her nice colour saturation and clean in focus shots and she is happy ... most brides have no idea what HD is anyway (I did a survey a while back and some actually said "I cannot tell the difference, besides I'm watching what's going on at my wedding") Good content and easy playability for me make a bride happy ..nothing else! Chris

December 15th, 2014, 12:56 AM	#47
Andrew Smith Equal Opportunity Offender Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 3,066	Re: How I hate DVDs.... So true. Plus having the ability to speak 'woman' when communicating with them. Andrew

December 15th, 2014, 01:47 AM	#48
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: How I hate DVDs.... I have tried something new, I was revising my prices and untill now I always included 3 dvd's and had blu-ray as a paying option. but for this year I only had one client asking for a blu-ray and I think last year no-one asked. This means I have a bunch of unused blu-ray discs sitting in my office and like it looks I can use them as coaster soon. So I decided to turn things around and while doing so make some extra cash, I now have 3 Blu-ray's included standard in my package and have the dvd as a paying option, I find it important enough to continue to give my clients a choice but maybe it's better to give them the best quality from the start and only if they want them, provide them with extra dvd's. I expect almost every client to ask for a dvd so that's some small extra income that I otherwise didn't have, since no-one took the blu-ray option. See how that goes.

December 15th, 2014, 01:56 AM	#49
James Manford Trustee Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,393	Re: How I hate DVDs.... I think the problem with that is Noa you may find them thinking "well every other videographer offers DVDs as standard ..." I could be wrong.

December 15th, 2014, 02:20 AM	#50
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: How I hate DVDs.... I try to make clear on my website that dvd is of a much lower quality and that I only want to deliver the best for them, and only for those that can't say goodbye to their dvd players that I will continue to deliver dvd's for them. I have seen the cheapest BR player for 50 euro and the cheapest dvd player for 25 euro so they are finally getting very close in cost. It actually costs more to fill up a gastank from your car then what a BR player costs so maybe it's time to convince people it's time to upgrade without forcing them into a certain format?

December 15th, 2014, 12:11 PM	#52
Steve Burkett Trustee Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Romsey, UK Posts: 1,261	Re: How I hate DVDs.... I can imagine Wedding Videographers arguing when DVD first came out about how clients wouldn't notice the difference in quality, everyone has a Video Cassette Player, only nerds have invested in DVD players. Video cassettes is still the best format, will continue to be etc etc. How many Wedding Videos sit on shelves or in drawers unwatched because the couple have long since ditched their Video Cassette player. I've been asked to convert a few, some I'm generous and say I'll do just for the cost of a disk and I still never hear back. It gets forgotten. Until then the couple can't on the spur of the moment just put on their Wedding Video. I guess there's a risk in any format, but I still think a digital copy is the best future proof option out there at the moment.

December 15th, 2014, 02:22 PM	#53
D.R. Gates Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Bakersfield, CA Posts: 111	Re: How I hate DVDs.... My package includes 4 DVDs & 2 Blu-rays. I don't nickel and dime my clients, especially when my cost per disc is so cheap.

December 15th, 2014, 02:30 PM	#54
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: How I hate DVDs.... I use tmpgenc autoringworks to make my dvd and blu-rays and maybe I overlooked but untill now I have to build each separately which then takes twice the time, if I only could build a menu and then have a choice to either export blu-ray or dvd then it would only be a matter of pressing a button and wait. About "nickel and dime" your clients, I have started watching a course from Ray Roman, you should see his option list. at 9,5k starting price I'd expect all to be included but that's just the bare minimum, he charges 800 dollar extra if you want blu-ray. :)

December 15th, 2014, 04:40 PM	#56
Steve Burkett Trustee Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Romsey, UK Posts: 1,261	Re: How I hate DVDs.... Apologies for not being too precise in my language. I use the term digital copies to refer to a copy that is purely for a computer and not a physical copy, and aside that I'm already working and delivery with 4K, I think it's at least important, given we are being paid, to store the best possible quality that was used in recording the Wedding. Failing that, as in some of my early Weddings, at the very least edited in. I have computer files of all my Wedding videos at the highest copy they were edited in. I'm sure my clients can't expect me to film in a format that has yet to be developed, but if they ask for HD or in 1 case 4K, even if they ask for a DVD copy, some because they're ignorant of it's limitation, I see no excuse to limit my digital files to such an inferior format when a better quality version exists. That said I agree with your views on Bluray and in my earlier post suggested that PC based copies although still not 100% future proof, are at the very least the best option if anyone considers that important to their clients; I'm sure some do not. As many here deride certain deliveries like Shortform or Highlights Videos as they feel it's not what the Bride will want to see in the future, I can only assume that such people who do feel that way will also acknowledge the importance that their videos be viewable say in 10 or 20 years time, otherwise why all the fuss over style of work, if pleasing the couple now is our only consideration.