Can I get away with a 2 axis gimbal? at DVinfo.net

Chris Harding · November 2nd, 2014, 11:38 PM

Hi Guys

I know Noa is still a proud Daddy of a new 3 axis gimbal for a GoPro but I'm wondering if I can get away a 2 axis model?? The two axis ones basically control pitch and roll right? I follow the bride and groom around in a garden setting so I never do any pan shots at all. All my current shots on Stedicam involve going around them walking or across them while they gaze lovingly into each other's eyes and kiss etc etc ..usual soppy stuff. However I always do the movement, never the camera so there would never be an issue where I would be in one spot and then try to pan either left or right across the couple. If I want to go to the left they stay where they are and I will move left to create a new angle.

So am I right or wrong saying that the only thing I need to control is pitch and roll which a 2 axis gimbal will do nicely the way I'm thinking? I really need to get rid of 25lbs of stedicam (excluding the camera!) and have something that's handheld and simple to hold and not generate buckets of sweat on a 40 degree C afternoon.

Chris

Noa Put · November 4th, 2014, 03:16 AM

I believe that third stabilisation point is for panning motion no? That would mean if you change direction with a 3 axis gimbal it should be smoother as it slowly will follow your movement. I just called for delivery status for my gopro and still have to wait at least 2 more weeks before it will be available, I then at least can tell you what a 3 axis stabilised can do, I only have one more wedding to do before winter break so have plenty of time to practise but I think for you it is just starting?

Chris Harding · November 4th, 2014, 07:32 AM

Thanks Noa

Much appreciated!!

Paul Mailath · November 5th, 2014, 12:05 AM

I've seen a 2 axis gimble on a glidecam - looked pretty good to me

Noa Put · November 5th, 2014, 01:35 AM

Here that 2 axis gimbal is so effective because it's on a steadicam so any left or right swaying or tilting because of the wind is being corrected by that extra gimbal, I think Chris wants to get rid of the steadicam weight all together and just use a stick with a 2 axis gimbal mounted to it. I"m sure it won't take long before they make gimbals like in this video with the wiring neatly hidden and suitable to mount small dslr's to it, in combination with a small steadicam you can make very stable moves, even if you are less a experienced steadicam operator.

Chris Harding · November 5th, 2014, 02:46 AM

I guessing here that this guy has two of these units? or was the footage shot just with a stedicam??

I have seen some excellent footage using just 2 axis motors but if you stand in one place and try to do a 180 pan it does get the jitters. I also feel that whether you have a 3 or 2 axis unit if you throw it around like a toy it's not going to give you good footage. I can take a GoPro and do a 360 around a couple and apart from a few wobbles it works pretty well mainly because I'm walking in "stedicam mode" ... add one of these units and keep in stedicam walking mode and it will be silky smooth at weddings ... I doubt whether you could use a handheld 3 axis unit and walk or run like a baby elephant ..it will help but it's not going to be that good. To use these effectively one needs to handle it just like you would a stedicam and the magic will happen!

Yeah Paul I'm getting tired of donning 15kg (without the camera) of rig on 40 degree celcius days in Perth and coming back after 20 minutes and being able to wring the sweat out my shirt. It takes a lot out of you !

My rig is going and a mini rig will replace it!! We have a local guy with the 2 axis model so I think I will try that with an adventure cam and see what happens... at least my arms and back won't kill me!!

Chris

Chris Harding · November 6th, 2014, 07:54 PM

Oh well we will see how practical a 2 axis gimbal is going to be pretty soon! I have just had a notification that my parcel is available at the postal depot in a few hours time so I will charge the batteries and give it a whirl in the back yard. If all looks good I'll use it on a bride and groom at tomorrows wedding on the beach and let you guys know the results. It has to be better than lugging a massive stedicam around and my wedding "creative shoot" is only a 10-15 minute session anyway.

Still waiting for a second GoPro style camera to arrive as I use my existing one as a safety cam high up at the ceremony so I need the 2nd one to do some fun shots once I have it

Chris

Chris Harding · November 7th, 2014, 05:51 AM

Ok I have a question maybe Noa can answer. Do we shoot blind with the hand held Feiyu unit. My little SJ4000's have an LCD back which you can monitor with but the motion sensor is mounted on the rear camera bracket so it blocks almost the whole screen. OK Wifi is an option but where would one mount a Smart Phone so you can see what you are shooting?? I suppose one could make two brackets that extend to one side off the handle but that might get in the way.

Are there any suggested options that would make a preview screen that you don't need to try and hold with your spare hand ..that would be really awkward.

Noa?? how are you intending to see what you are shooting or will it be so wide, it doesn't matter

Noa Put · November 7th, 2014, 06:16 AM

The feiyu comes with a smartphone holder that attaches to the back of the handle to which the gimbal is attached, I plan to use my motorola phone and a gopro app that you can download for free so my phone can show whatever the gopro is seeing.

Chris Harding · November 7th, 2014, 07:17 AM

Thanks Noa

Both my cams have LCD's but I have the non wifi models. I saw a guy on you tube who got a 3.5" monitor

Video is here... I like the fact that it just plugs onto the back on the roll gimbal motor and is at a great level for shooting too. My SJ cams also have AV out which is good enough for seeing what you are doing. At the moment I need to eyeball my shots so I just might build this ..saves having to use my phone and an app and it's cheap as chips too!!!

BTW I gave the 2 axis gimbal a quick run inside this evening and it's awesome!! So simple to get steady footage too!! The only thing it might struggle with is a horizontal pan as it only has a roll and tilt motor but it does a better job than my stedicam and doesn't kill my back.

Chris

Mark Rosenzweig · November 7th, 2014, 09:10 AM

Since a general issue in this thread is stabilizing a small gopro-like camera using a simple handheld stabilizer and being able to frame shots, there are two alternative options to mounting both a cellphone to a gimbal just to see along with the GoPro:

1. The Steadicam Curve. This is a dedicated-to-GoPro handheld, small stabilizer (non-motorized) that has the advantage in that you can use the lcd back on the camera so you see what you are shooting. Adding a phone to the gimbal and connecting by wifi to a gopro on a 3-axis (or 2-) stabilizer so you can see what you are shooting is approaching absurdity.

The issue is how well the Steadicam does in stabilizing. But it has the same compactness.

2. A cellphone on a 3-axis gimbal to shoot the video. The lcd on the phone is completely visible, and now a few phones shoot 4K video that in many cases is better than what you get from a GoPro or their clones. There are dedicated 3-axis gimbals for cellphones that are available.

Noa Put · November 7th, 2014, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Adding a phone to the gimbal and connecting by wifi to a gopro on a 3-axis (or 2-) stabilizer so you can see what you are shooting is approaching absurdity.

Why is that? the phone just acts as a small screen, unless you think flying blind is not absurd :) the phone just attaches to the back of that 3 axis stabiliser from the Feiyu, you don't have to custommake anything, it comes as an accessory, just click the phone into it's place and you are good to go. Some might think though using a cellphone on a gimbal looks absurd ;)

The Steadicam Curve can come nowhere near a 3 axis stabilised gimbal, it's a toy that is almost impossible to get steadicam like shots with.

A cellphone on a 3-axis gimbal is much more limited then using a gopro, we all know how versatile a gopro can be, so beside using it on a 2 or 3 axis gimbal you can attach it in or out a car or to whatever you want, use it as a second unmanned camera for the odd super wide angle, use it under water, try doing that all with a cellphone, a cellphone you use to make phonecalls and do your occasional video, take pictures and use it as a minicomputer, or as a screen for your handheld stabiliser :).

Mark Rosenzweig · November 8th, 2014, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put

Why is that? the phone just acts as a small screen, unless you think flying blind is not absurd :) the phone just attaches to the back of that 3 axis stabiliser from the Feiyu, you don't have to custommake anything, it comes as an accessory, just click the phone into it's place and you are good to go. Some might think though using a cellphone on a gimbal looks absurd ;)

The Steadicam Curve can come nowhere near a 3 axis stabilised gimbal, it's a toy that is almost impossible to get steadicam like shots with.

A cellphone on a 3-axis gimbal is much more limited then using a gopro, we all know how versatile a gopro can be, so beside using it on a 2 or 3 axis gimbal you can attach it in or out a car or to whatever you want, use it as a second unmanned camera for the odd super wide angle, use it under water, try doing that all with a cellphone, a cellphone you use to make phonecalls and do your occasional video, take pictures and use it as a minicomputer, or as a screen for your handheld stabiliser :).

I have the Hero 4 Black, and really like it. But I think using it to take video on a gimbal with a cellphone as a viewer is inferior in ergonomics and video quality to just using a 4K cellphone on a gimbal to take the video - you just need one device, no need to connect to anything by wifi, and you do not get the distortion of the GoPro fisheye. Easier to set up, smaller, and better video using the cellphone as the 4K camera. The GoPro is good for stationary wide shots, not for following people around (distortion).

Here are two example 4K videos using a Samsung Galaxy S5 on a 3-axis motorized gimbal:

I do not think the GoPro would be better for this (you might be better).

Noa Put · November 8th, 2014, 05:42 AM

Eventhough my only experience with the gopro at this moment is what I read about it but some features (beside the obvious much more versatile applications you can use it for, not only for stationary shots :)) that stand out for me is the fact that you can shoot at 4k at 25p, 2,7k at 50p in ultra wide and medium view and 1080p at 120p, don't know how much quality will suffer at other resolutions but will know soon.

Also protune is a huge benefit for shooting flat and colorcorrect to match other camera's and the fact that you do have quite some control over different settings like iso, shutter or whitebalance, much more limited then on a real videocamera but still sufficient to have more control over what you shoot.

Also the time lapse feature is something worth trying out and not to mention the fact you can monitor what it sees from your phone also opens up other possibilities .

Not sure what you can do with a 4k phone as it probably will do most things fully automatic. A 4k phone is great in use because you always have it on you and like you have proven can supply great imagery but the gopro has way more options in use, also in professional video. I plan to use it at a wedding but can see many more uses for it for my paid work, even for my company videos just because it can be so versatile.

Mark Rosenzweig · November 8th, 2014, 06:07 AM

The gopro is great. It is not great for use on a gimbal. The gopro is more "fully" automatic than the Galaxy S5. Look it up. This thread is about using a gimbal, and all I am saying is that a GoPro on a gimbal is inferior in every way to a 4K smartphone on a gimbal. I own the gopro and the smartphone and gimbal so this is based on experience. The gopro has many wonderful uses and produces good video. It is not well-suited to gimbal use.

November 2nd, 2014, 11:38 PM	#1
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Can I get away with a 2 axis gimbal? Hi Guys I know Noa is still a proud Daddy of a new 3 axis gimbal for a GoPro but I'm wondering if I can get away a 2 axis model?? The two axis ones basically control pitch and roll right? I follow the bride and groom around in a garden setting so I never do any pan shots at all. All my current shots on Stedicam involve going around them walking or across them while they gaze lovingly into each other's eyes and kiss etc etc ..usual soppy stuff. However I always do the movement, never the camera so there would never be an issue where I would be in one spot and then try to pan either left or right across the couple. If I want to go to the left they stay where they are and I will move left to create a new angle. So am I right or wrong saying that the only thing I need to control is pitch and roll which a 2 axis gimbal will do nicely the way I'm thinking? I really need to get rid of 25lbs of stedicam (excluding the camera!) and have something that's handheld and simple to hold and not generate buckets of sweat on a 40 degree C afternoon. Chris

November 4th, 2014, 03:16 AM	#2
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: Can I get away with a 2 axis gimbal? I believe that third stabilisation point is for panning motion no? That would mean if you change direction with a 3 axis gimbal it should be smoother as it slowly will follow your movement. I just called for delivery status for my gopro and still have to wait at least 2 more weeks before it will be available, I then at least can tell you what a 3 axis stabilised can do, I only have one more wedding to do before winter break so have plenty of time to practise but I think for you it is just starting?

November 4th, 2014, 07:32 AM	#3
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Can I get away with a 2 axis gimbal? Thanks Noa Much appreciated!!

November 5th, 2014, 12:05 AM	#4
Paul Mailath Trustee Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Central Coast - NSW, Australia Posts: 1,606	Re: Can I get away with a 2 axis gimbal? I've seen a 2 axis gimble on a glidecam - looked pretty good to me BEHIND THE SCENES - 2 Axis Gimbal on Glidecam - YouTube __________________ Cheers - Paul M. www.perbenyik.com

November 5th, 2014, 01:35 AM	#5
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: Can I get away with a 2 axis gimbal? Here that 2 axis gimbal is so effective because it's on a steadicam so any left or right swaying or tilting because of the wind is being corrected by that extra gimbal, I think Chris wants to get rid of the steadicam weight all together and just use a stick with a 2 axis gimbal mounted to it. I"m sure it won't take long before they make gimbals like in this video with the wiring neatly hidden and suitable to mount small dslr's to it, in combination with a small steadicam you can make very stable moves, even if you are less a experienced steadicam operator.

November 5th, 2014, 02:46 AM	#6
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Can I get away with a 2 axis gimbal? I guessing here that this guy has two of these units? or was the footage shot just with a stedicam?? I have seen some excellent footage using just 2 axis motors but if you stand in one place and try to do a 180 pan it does get the jitters. I also feel that whether you have a 3 or 2 axis unit if you throw it around like a toy it's not going to give you good footage. I can take a GoPro and do a 360 around a couple and apart from a few wobbles it works pretty well mainly because I'm walking in "stedicam mode" ... add one of these units and keep in stedicam walking mode and it will be silky smooth at weddings ... I doubt whether you could use a handheld 3 axis unit and walk or run like a baby elephant ..it will help but it's not going to be that good. To use these effectively one needs to handle it just like you would a stedicam and the magic will happen! Yeah Paul I'm getting tired of donning 15kg (without the camera) of rig on 40 degree celcius days in Perth and coming back after 20 minutes and being able to wring the sweat out my shirt. It takes a lot out of you ! My rig is going and a mini rig will replace it!! We have a local guy with the 2 axis model so I think I will try that with an adventure cam and see what happens... at least my arms and back won't kill me!! Chris

November 6th, 2014, 07:54 PM	#7
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Can I get away with a 2 axis gimbal? Oh well we will see how practical a 2 axis gimbal is going to be pretty soon! I have just had a notification that my parcel is available at the postal depot in a few hours time so I will charge the batteries and give it a whirl in the back yard. If all looks good I'll use it on a bride and groom at tomorrows wedding on the beach and let you guys know the results. It has to be better than lugging a massive stedicam around and my wedding "creative shoot" is only a 10-15 minute session anyway. Still waiting for a second GoPro style camera to arrive as I use my existing one as a safety cam high up at the ceremony so I need the 2nd one to do some fun shots once I have it Chris

November 7th, 2014, 05:51 AM	#8
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Can I get away with a 2 axis gimbal? Ok I have a question maybe Noa can answer. Do we shoot blind with the hand held Feiyu unit. My little SJ4000's have an LCD back which you can monitor with but the motion sensor is mounted on the rear camera bracket so it blocks almost the whole screen. OK Wifi is an option but where would one mount a Smart Phone so you can see what you are shooting?? I suppose one could make two brackets that extend to one side off the handle but that might get in the way. Are there any suggested options that would make a preview screen that you don't need to try and hold with your spare hand ..that would be really awkward. Noa?? how are you intending to see what you are shooting or will it be so wide, it doesn't matter

November 7th, 2014, 06:16 AM	#9
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: Can I get away with a 2 axis gimbal? The feiyu comes with a smartphone holder that attaches to the back of the handle to which the gimbal is attached, I plan to use my motorola phone and a gopro app that you can download for free so my phone can show whatever the gopro is seeing.

November 7th, 2014, 07:17 AM	#10
Chris Harding Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 8,441	Re: Can I get away with a 2 axis gimbal? Thanks Noa Both my cams have LCD's but I have the non wifi models. I saw a guy on you tube who got a 3.5" monitor Video is here... I like the fact that it just plugs onto the back on the roll gimbal motor and is at a great level for shooting too. My SJ cams also have AV out which is good enough for seeing what you are doing. At the moment I need to eyeball my shots so I just might build this ..saves having to use my phone and an app and it's cheap as chips too!!! BTW I gave the 2 axis gimbal a quick run inside this evening and it's awesome!! So simple to get steady footage too!! The only thing it might struggle with is a horizontal pan as it only has a roll and tilt motor but it does a better job than my stedicam and doesn't kill my back. Feiyu 2-Axis Handheld Gimbal for Gopro Hero 3+ & 3.5" Monitor - YouTube Chris

November 7th, 2014, 09:10 AM	#11
Mark Rosenzweig Trustee Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: New Haven, CT Posts: 1,004	Steadicam Curve or Cellphone are better alternatives Since a general issue in this thread is stabilizing a small gopro-like camera using a simple handheld stabilizer and being able to frame shots, there are two alternative options to mounting both a cellphone to a gimbal just to see along with the GoPro: 1. The Steadicam Curve. This is a dedicated-to-GoPro handheld, small stabilizer (non-motorized) that has the advantage in that you can use the lcd back on the camera so you see what you are shooting. Adding a phone to the gimbal and connecting by wifi to a gopro on a 3-axis (or 2-) stabilizer so you can see what you are shooting is approaching absurdity. The issue is how well the Steadicam does in stabilizing. But it has the same compactness. 2. A cellphone on a 3-axis gimbal to shoot the video. The lcd on the phone is completely visible, and now a few phones shoot 4K video that in many cases is better than what you get from a GoPro or their clones. There are dedicated 3-axis gimbals for cellphones that are available.

November 8th, 2014, 05:42 AM	#14
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: Can I get away with a 2 axis gimbal? Eventhough my only experience with the gopro at this moment is what I read about it but some features (beside the obvious much more versatile applications you can use it for, not only for stationary shots :)) that stand out for me is the fact that you can shoot at 4k at 25p, 2,7k at 50p in ultra wide and medium view and 1080p at 120p, don't know how much quality will suffer at other resolutions but will know soon. Also protune is a huge benefit for shooting flat and colorcorrect to match other camera's and the fact that you do have quite some control over different settings like iso, shutter or whitebalance, much more limited then on a real videocamera but still sufficient to have more control over what you shoot. Also the time lapse feature is something worth trying out and not to mention the fact you can monitor what it sees from your phone also opens up other possibilities . Not sure what you can do with a 4k phone as it probably will do most things fully automatic. A 4k phone is great in use because you always have it on you and like you have proven can supply great imagery but the gopro has way more options in use, also in professional video. I plan to use it at a wedding but can see many more uses for it for my paid work, even for my company videos just because it can be so versatile.

November 8th, 2014, 06:07 AM	#15
Mark Rosenzweig Trustee Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: New Haven, CT Posts: 1,004	Re: Can I get away with a 2 axis gimbal? The gopro is great. It is not great for use on a gimbal. The gopro is more "fully" automatic than the Galaxy S5. Look it up. This thread is about using a gimbal, and all I am saying is that a GoPro on a gimbal is inferior in every way to a 4K smartphone on a gimbal. I own the gopro and the smartphone and gimbal so this is based on experience. The gopro has many wonderful uses and produces good video. It is not well-suited to gimbal use.